Steaming "Poison" goblet

[james3mc]

Plot : Babes in the Wood, nasty Sheriff gives Babes a night-time drink of poison.

 

I need to create the effect of a nice steaming goblet overflowing with evil smoke / steam - or some similar effect to show that it's definitely not cocoa.

 

It doesn't have to be consumed.

 

Three goblets x 6 shows. It's on stage for about 4 minutes.

 

Amateur group - working with tight budget.

 

Thanks for your help,

 

James

[MarkPAman]

Some of what is in here may be useful.

Some bits are complete rubbish though!

[james3mc]

Hmmm thanks for that ... interesting reading, but nothing that quite fits the bill. Has to be stand alone (these are hand-held goblets or flagons, suitable for use near children, although it's not actually drunk.

 

Dry ice just isn't really an option as the quantities required are so small and would have to be bought almost every day (10Kg is minimum delivery and can't be stored for more that 24hrs even in an air-tight container).

 

Any more suggestions?

[gingertom]

If there is a point where they could be lit smoke pellets may be an option. I have employed their use in a similar situation.

 

HTH

[andy_s]

we had a device designed for installing in model steam locomotives to produce smoke in an evil goblet situation:smoke was a bit whispy but definitely visible in an outdoor performance space. advantage: small heater and 9V battery could be concealed in goblet. disadvantage: possibly cost if you have to do 3 of them, and the oil "sits" in an open reservoir, so goblet can't be handled too vigorously or tipped at all.

 

It was a few years ago, so I'm afraid I can't remember the details of the shop we got it from - I think it was mail order in Reading, Berkshire. I suppose a google for local model shops would be the place to start.

 

I also remember vaguely that there are two household substances that can be mixed to safely produce "deadly" fumes - I think it's Bicarb of Soda or baking powder mixed into vinegar, but don't take my word for it - ask someone who knows about chemistry! I think I've seen this in reference books on props making, but can't find it in the ones I've got with me at work at the moment.

[Johnno]

Get some 100vol hydrogen peroxide and add a tea spoon of manganese dioxide (AKA Manganese IV Oxide). The result is fantastic.

 

Peroxide from hairdressing suppliers. Not sure about t'other but you could try tiny pieces of raw liver instead.

 

100vol Peroxide is a strong bleach but splashes are not fatal and just make your skin itch until rinsed off.

[paulears]

Hydrogen Peroxide?

HAZARD SUMMARY

* Hydrogen Peroxide can affect you when breathed in.

* Because this is a MUTAGEN, handle it as a possible CARCINOGEN--WITH EXTREME CAUTION.

* Hydrogen Peroxide is a CORROSIVE CHEMICAL and contact can irritate and burn the eyes and skin causing damage to the eyes.

* Breathing Hydrogen Peroxide can irritate the nose and throat.

* Breathing Hydrogen Peroxide can irritate the lungs causing coughing and/or shortness of breath. Higher exposures can cause a build-up of fluid in the lungs (pulmonary edema), a medical emergency, with severe shortness of breath.

* Health effects are unlikely to occur with commercial solutions of Hydrogen Peroxide used as a skin disinfectant.

* Hydrogen Peroxide is a HIGHLY REACTIVE CHEMICAL and a DANGEROUS EXPLOSION HAZARD

 

And Manganese Dioxide

 

DANGER! OXIDIZER. CONTACT WITH OTHER MATERIAL MAY CAUSE FIRE. HARMFUL IF SWALLOWED OR INHALED. AFFECTS LUNGS, CENTRAL NERVOUS SYSTEM, BLOOD AND KIDNEYS. MAY CAUSE IRRITATION TO EYES AND RESPIRATORY TRACT. MAY AFFECT THE GUM TISSUE AND REPRODUCTIVE SYSTEM. INHALATION CANCER HAZARD. CONTAINS QUARTZ WHICH CAN CAUSE CANCER. Risk of cancer depends upon duration and level of exposure.

 

 

 

 

I think maybe not......? (appologies for the caps, but this was a copy and paste job)

[Ike]

I know you are probably well aware of this and it could just be a typo but for the benefit of anyone reading this: Dry ice (solid carbon dioxide) must NEVER be stored in an airtight container for any length of time. It will explode!

 

As it needs to be suitable for use near children it adds another dimension to the problem. My suggestions would be:

 

1, Forget the smoke, go for a transparent goblet and fill it with either glostick "juice". Glostick juice is non-toxic however it does stain and you must be careful to remove bits of the glass capsule you have to break to start the reaction. Remember to read the instructions if you use another brand as I cant vouch for there toxicity however suspect they will be safe.

 

2. As number one but use a UV reactive liquid such as tonic water (not slimline) and use a UV cannon/tubes to light it.

 

3. Use an ultrasonic fogger. Loads of places do them, they aren't too expensive and they work with water. The downside is the effect isn't that spectacular and you will probably have to cut off the power cable and fit your own battery and connector. See below.

http://www.maplin.co.uk/images/300/L38ak.jpg

[badname]

My ex-physics teacher would often do a similar thing for when he had a new lot of Yr7 pupils arrive and fill his lab with beakers with different coloured liquids in that were overflowing with steam, then another teacher would run in and drink one of them and run away. The look on the kids faces was priceless :blink:

 

Anyway how he did it was get an old but still working carbon dioxide fire extinguisher (I'll stress not using a current one for very obvious reasons, it could lead to a nasty surprise if the worst case scenario happened - this teacher had a few locked away for this use only) and wrap the arm of a labcoat around the end nozzle. Then if you pull the trigger for a couple of seconds some gas escapes through the fabric but it forms small (10mm2 probably at the most) pellets of dry ice in the fabric which can be shaken out/pickd up wth gloves and placed in said goblet/beaker for ideal effect.

 

I don't know of the safety aspects of this but we never had any problems, use it at your own risk though. Holding the trigger down for a few seconds produced enough for a couple of beakers full. It can't be worse than mixing chemicals together.

[Tomo]

The classic way to do this is to put a few dry ice (solid CO2) pellets into a cup of warm water.

You won't need much.

 

BOC and similar companies sell it, and it's fairly cheap - certainly cheaper than using a CO2 fire extinguisher or other liquid CO2 source.

They provide it in a suitable polystyrene container, and will advise on how much you'll need and how long it'll keep.

 

However:

Dry Ice causes burns - worse than hot objects as you'll also get frostbite.

Always use suitable protection, and don't drink from the cup - if you get a bit of dry ice in your throat it could be very, very nasty.

 

BOC can advise you when writing the risk assessment.

[DavidLee]

Hmmm thanks for that ... interesting reading, but nothing that quite fits the bill. Has to be stand alone (these are hand-held goblets or flagons, suitable for use near children, although it's not actually drunk.

 

Dry ice just isn't really an option as the quantities required are so small and would have to be bought almost every day (10Kg is minimum delivery and can't be stored for more that 24hrs even in an air-tight container).

I'm afraid that dry ice is the only real solution - any chemical alternative will be even more of a safety problem. Provided you store it in a well insulated (but NOT airtight) container and only open it when you need to remove material you will be able to keep it for several days. It will sublime away but you will only need a few pellets for the effect and so can afford to lose most of it to sublimation. Best way of storing it is in a box well insulated with expanded polystyrene - AFAIK suppliers such as BOC can provide suitable storage.

 

Whether it is safe in your application will depend upon a risk assessment based on your technical arrangements and the responsibility of the actual children concerned. They won't need to come into contact with any dry ice apart from the small fragments in the goblet but you must be absolutely sure that they cannot or can be trusted not to try to drink the contents. However you can reduce the risk by confining the dry ice in the goblet using metal gauze or even a tea infuser so that it will be impossible to swallow any fragments of dry ice.

 

You may be able to scrounge small quantities of dry ice from a university chemistry or biology department or a hospital. It may even be worth asking a local GP, since they occasionally use small quantities of dry ice for minor cryogenic procedures such as wart removal and so they must have a local source (presumably within the health service).

 

David

 

Edit: If you do decide to go with dry ice then be aware that you must NEVER transport it in the passenger compartment of a vehicle or store it in a confined space. Carbon dioxide is toxic as well as an asphyxiant and atmospheric concentrations as low as 12% are fatal.

[the kid]

I thought doctors used nitrogen.

 

And you will find that BOC is not always the cheapest.

I would defiantly ask uni's. One year, before I was about, for an am dram they went and collected half a pillow full of dry ice from one of the science labs in oxford and took back in a cool box every day.

I think it cost them about 5 pints.

[DavidLee]

Very true - you can frequently find a local source.

 

If you have a regular requirement for small quantities of dry ice (for example a panto run most years) then a good solution can be to make your own. Dry ice makers are available that are very easy to use and usually make blocks about the size of a housebrick (typically 750g or 1 kilo), using a cylinder of carbon dioxide. For a two to three week run starting on Boxing Day we used to hire two or three cylinders from a company in Worcester (Cryoservices) who would come out with a very small tanker and top up our bottles half way through the run. I think we used to get about 14 blocks per "normal sized" cylinder, but I can check back in my diary for details if anyone's interested.

 

Liquid CO2 is stored under pressure at room temperature and so can be stored indefinitely in an ordinary gas cylinder (although you do need a bottle fitted with a syphon in order to extract the liquid).

 

David

[Jivemaster]

A modded ultrasonic fogger in the base of a goblet of water with a local psu should satisfy H&S and Fx. Conceal a smoke pellet and igniter in a separate chamber for a bigger cloud. Really a lot depends on the apparent and real volume of the goblet. You have to have some space to hide the works!

[Johnno]

Hydrogen Peroxide?

HAZARD SUMMARY

* Hydrogen Peroxide can affect you when breathed in.

* Because this is a MUTAGEN, handle it as a possible CARCINOGEN--WITH EXTREME CAUTION.

* Hydrogen Peroxide is a CORROSIVE CHEMICAL and contact can irritate and burn the eyes and skin causing damage to the eyes.

* Breathing Hydrogen Peroxide can irritate the nose and throat.

* Breathing Hydrogen Peroxide can irritate the lungs causing coughing and/or shortness of breath. Higher exposures can cause a build-up of fluid in the lungs (pulmonary edema), a medical emergency, with severe shortness of breath.

* Health effects are unlikely to occur with commercial solutions of Hydrogen Peroxide used as a skin disinfectant.

* Hydrogen Peroxide is a HIGHLY REACTIVE CHEMICAL and a DANGEROUS EXPLOSION HAZARD

 

And Manganese Dioxide

 

DANGER! OXIDIZER. CONTACT WITH OTHER MATERIAL MAY CAUSE FIRE. HARMFUL IF SWALLOWED OR INHALED. AFFECTS LUNGS, CENTRAL NERVOUS SYSTEM, BLOOD AND KIDNEYS. MAY CAUSE IRRITATION TO EYES AND RESPIRATORY TRACT. MAY AFFECT THE GUM TISSUE AND REPRODUCTIVE SYSTEM. INHALATION CANCER HAZARD. CONTAINS QUARTZ WHICH CAN CAUSE CANCER. Risk of cancer depends upon duration and level of exposure.

 

 

 

 

I think maybe not......? (appologies for the caps, but this was a copy and paste job)

 

 

Whoa there!

 

Hydrogen Peroxide is a regularly used substance in the GCSE Science curriculum. If it was carcinogenic or mutagenic it would be banned (like crude oil is for the benzene it contains). Pupils do experiments using it dilute (20vol H2O2) with manganese dioxide as part of their GCSE coursework. Teachers use it up to full strength for the very impressive demo I mentioned (Put about 50mL 100vol H2O2 in a clean coke can. Add a spatula of MnO2. You get a massive plume of steam shooting out of the can and it ends up too hot to touch. Looks great). Hairdressers use it dilute on client's heads. You can drink it dilute (but NOT the sort you'd be able to buy commonly as it probably will contain additives to inhibit its breakdown).

 

Where did you paste from? You've made my post sound like a an invitation to hold a three-phase cable in your mouth while climbing a ladder whose steps have been greased! Our school (like most) uses CLEAPSS for hazard information and if I were at school I'd quote you the relevant Hazcard.

 

John.

 

PS In edit mode: You may have quoted the hazard for pure (100%) H2O2. 100vol = 30%. Pupils generally use 20vol = 6%