Mixing desk, which one?

[Bobbsy]

Very nice dear. Do you have something similar for the EQ and sends :D

 

Awwww...and I didn't know you cared! I'd move in with you but I couldn't bear a country that thinks Steinlager is beer! :( As for the EQ and sends, nope...but like BenWall I find the advantages of two discrete channels outweigh the disadvantages.

 

All of which leads me to <rant> number two - why is it that everyone assumes that desks with small numbers of channels need no routing flexibility at all... grrr </rant>

 

Digital is the answer though in the word of theatre. Digital always gives you instant recall, MIDI and VCAs irrespective of desk size.

 

On this I couldn't agree more. It's almost two years since I've had to do a show on an analogue console and I never want to go back. I'm doing things on my 19 inch wide DM1000 that I couldn't even consider on my old Soundcraft that was several times as large!

 

Bob

[BenWall]

I'm doing things on my 19 inch wide DM1000 that I couldn't even consider on my old Soundcraft that was several times as large!

 

Can't beat a DM1000... Love them! :D

 

Ben.

[david.elsbury]

getting more than four stereo channels as standard fitment seems next to impossible, and pairs of mono channels are an ugly substitute at best.

Umm, on all the desks I've seen, the stereo channels have been severely crippled, with no sweepable controls on the EQ for example, and only able to route to a couple of aux sends. FWIW....

 

:D

David

[dbuckley]

So thats it, the OP should tell the school to get a DM1000.

 

There, wasn't that easy :(

 

Again, a little further :D what do you guys do for more mic channels on your DMs?

 

... the stereo channels have been severely crippled, with no sweepable controls on the EQ for example

'Tis true, you almost always lose EQ facilities with stereo channels, but the routing is normally the same, there is a balance control rather than a panpot to deal with mismatched gains. But normally the stereo channels are used with either playbacks or true electronic instruments, which in my experience require waaay less EQing than anything with a mic in front of it.

[Bobbsy]

So thats it, the OP should tell the school to get a DM1000.

 

There, wasn't that easy :(

 

Yup...so long as YOU teach them how to use it! Seriously, I'd think the learning curve would be a bit TOO steep for somebody who didn't already have the basics on an analogue board down pat. That aside, I'd say digital is definitely the way to go for the future.

 

Again, a little further :D what do you guys do for more mic channels on your DMs?

 

Well, in my case I've got two MY16AT cards and four Behringer ADA8000s. Yeah, I know there are nicer mic preamps out there...but for SR use I find them just fine. The only drawback is having the inputs on the front panel makes the patching look at bit messy at times. I should say that I also have a DM2000, so the expansion cards and ADA8000s get swapped around as required. Running the DM1000 with all 48 channels populated is not something I like to do all the time!

 

Bob

[BenWall]

Again, a little further :D what do you guys do for more mic channels on your DMs?

 

Probably simpler to read it for yourself than trying to write it all down!! :(

 

DM1000 Expansion

 

Ben.

 

P.S. Bob- you lucky bugger, I would love a 2000!

[dbuckley]

Yep, had had a quick look at the Yammy site, but was wondering the real deal was, and yep, Behringer ADAs. I had a sneaking suspicion, as even people who bash B quite hard sometimes have to quietly admit that they use the ADAs...

 

And with that, we return to the scheduled entertainment.

[ojc123]

We've been around this loop in the BR before, but I'm getting sick of the way money is wasted in the school system by people who don't know what they're doing....and students who think they know everything. I'm almost to the stage of wishing they'd pack up, convert the rooms to lecture halls and stop playing at theatre before the waste any more of my tax money.

 

Bob

Thanks for the encouragement. And just so you can stop worrying, every bit of theatre equipment in our school has been bought from profits from productions or donations from parents. Your tax money (and mine) is safe in that respect at least.

[Bobbsy]

You'll note that, a couple of posts later, I apologised to the original poster.

 

However, your school is very much the exception to the rule if technical gear is not purchased out of tax money. Clearly, I can't comment on HOW you've spent your money, but if you have to raise it yourself I suspect you might take a bit more care in what you spend it on.

 

My rant came after, over a period of a couple of months, reading a series of posts in here about equipment for schools. The ones that post in here tend NOT to be people who should be, in any way, responsible for specifying spending. They're invariably enthusiastic but just as invariably do not have the necessary knowledge to properly design and specify a sound system. I mention sound because that's my personal area of knowledge; I suspect lighting people may have the same issues.

 

To give a case in point: I have a 17 year old daughter working on her AS Level in Theatre Studies. They have what SHOULD be a lovely theatre, purpose built only a few years ago, and a good range of equipment. However, the whole theatre area was planned by teachers who are more comfortable analysing Artaud than with anything technical. The "technical spec" was handled by the husband of the head of drama, a man with moderate experience in AmDram but not much more. The results:

 

-the stage is a great size, but the wings are less than a meter wide.

 

-there is no way for cast in costume to access toilets without walking through the lobby

 

-no thought was given to acoustics. the auditorium is a rectangular box with hard surfaces and badly prone to standing waves. I hate to think what the RT60 figure is.

 

-the raked seating is retractable to make a studio space but there is no safety interlock on the two doors at the rear...when the seats are back it's possible to open them and step into an immediate 30 foot drop. Chains and padlocks are now used, but this need was found the "hard way", not planned.

 

-despite the theatre being only about 5 years old, they're on their second mixing desk and this one is failing too. A far better, longer lasting one would have only cost 20-30% more than what they've bought each time.

 

-they're on their second or third batch of radio mics. The present ones are from 3 different manufacturers and, due to tuning limitations cannot all be used at once without intermod problems.

 

-the speakers purchased were more "speaker on a stick" types bracketed to the wall and do not provide proper coverage of the hall...they're also located BEHIND the main playing area (the stage has a thrust-style apron.

 

I could go on. I'm sure they think they've been saving money by the DIY approach, but all I see is horrendous waste. BTW, in response to the inevitable question, I HAVE offered to advise, but have been told that "politics" would make that hard. AFAIK, the politics are that the Head of Drama doesn't want a row with her adviser hubby!

 

This thread follows a similar pattern: a student asking a seemingly innocuous question which, when discussed, lead to the revelation that a facility is being built (if the OP is accurate) without professional advice on sound, only some rather suspect input from a music teacher whose priority is a recording studio, not a theatre.

 

Sorry, but it sound like another recipe for waste and disappointment to me.

 

Bob

[Guest lightnix]

Hope this doesn't appear too rude, but as just mentioned in the lighting forum...

...can I suggest that you use the search function to look through the archives for the many other topics which exist on the subject of lighting desks for schools? This is a subject that's been discussed in great depth many times over in the past, and it seems a little pointless to go around the discussion yet again if you can find the advice you're looking for elsewhere on the BR.

Seconded, a quick search of the Technical forums for "school" revealed around twenty-one threads on the subject of buying lighting and sound equipment for schools and that's before we get into the ones about buying equipment for colleges, churches, village halls and other small venues / systems. There is already a large knowledge base on this subject - please make use of it and add any questions to existing threads, rather than just expect people to keep repeating the same advice over and over again.

...the same is true of sound :D

[ghance]

seems obvious to me.. what they really need is a midas XL8.

[Simon Lewis]

Sorry, but it sound like another recipe for waste and disappointment to me.

 

I started to reply, but didn't post it... meanwhile Bob summarised most of my thoughts.

 

I teach a broad range of subjects, mainly in the field of electroacoustics. I also run a small business that supports churches in the region through audio system hire, sales and installation.

 

Some customers come to me with an idea of what they want - perhaps based on an advert in the Sunday magazines (it was next to the BMW advert, so it must sound good!), a special clearance offer from one of the cut price catalogues or impressions of a system seen elsewhere. Some do not have a clue, and could be persuaded to spend £50 or £5000. They wouldn't know if it was a bargain or a rip off.

 

I believe that a careful needs analysis and a system specification which meets the customer's present and future requirements is a fundamental necessity. This then should lead to a design that provide a holistic answer to these requirements - i.e. it answers the technical, aesthetic, learning curve, build quality and capital/maintenance cost factors.

 

As others have attested, this process is circumvented in many different situations, and it means wasted money, a less than optimal training/teaching/user experience and short lived systems that are not fit for purpose.

 

One American audio consultant summed up this process quite succinctly in this document.

 

I do not want to discourage people, merely to help them get the best for their particular circumstances!

 

Simon

[Bobbsy]

One American audio consultant summed up this process quite succinctly in this document.

 

 

Simon

 

 

ROFL! You can wait for ages for a Jim Brown URL to come along, and then two come at once!

 

(See my post of a couple of hours ago in the thread about problems with a radio mic!)

 

Bob

[Brian]

What I need is a mixer with at least 4 mic channels and 6 line in stereo channels or 12 line in mono, and a good XLR output with separate headphone output.

Soundcraft ES, £271, 4 mono and 10 stereo

Soundcraft M8, £299, 8 mono and 4 stereo

 

Job done.