Tallescopes

[Tomo]

Unless you have the right kit and the point you attach your fall arrest gear to is rated for the purpose then in effect you're in a worse position with regards to safety as you have a false sense of security provided by a potentially ineffective fall arrest system.

I agree! I've always believed in the tenet of "Safer to have nothing than something that probably won't catch you"

 

I would say that fall arrest harnessing to a tallie or non-fixed scaffolding is a VERY bad idea anyway - if you fall you will put a sideways load on it, which is rather likely to pull it over.

So you hit the deck anyway, and then get landed on by the scaffolding. That's really going to hurt!

[iZian]

I am pleased to see that the person that was doing most of the rigging/repointing for the production during Friday was sensible enough to say that he was too tired to go up again.

----snip------

DO you think 1) That people as young as us should be using tallescopes

----snip------

Although we were not being directly supervised, the head of drama, who is essentially HoD was in the hall as well carrying out a rehearsel, so there was an adult there.

Richard,

 

Anybody who is trained well to do what they do is more safe than somebody who is not. If you are not trained then you do not go up the tallescope. No debate, no question. I haven't given you the training or confirmed your training on a tallescope, and the same goes for your brother, therefore you do not use it.

 

However, if you were trained, and I had seen this for myself, and you were confident enough to use the Tallescope, then I would be happy to send you up there. This is purely because of the fact that if you were trained, you would be just as safe up the tallescope as myself or Richard C.

 

Because Head of Drama was in the hall, he was the supervising member of staff for the workings of the play, including technical, and therefore any ladder work was completely within H&S school regulations.

 

If you are unhappy about the way things were handled by the senior crew members on Friday then I would prefer it if you contacted me personally in future.

;)

[robloxley]

Because Head of Drama was in the hall, he was the supervising member of staff for the workings of the play, including technical, and therefore any ladder work was completely within H&S school regulations.

In many schools that conclusion would be something of a leap of faith!

[robloxley]

...run the hauling rope over the bar or a fixed point with someone at ground level taking the weight of the lantern...

Sorry to be pedantic, but I would suggest that hauling a rope over a bar is bad practice - you should use a small pulley.

Agreed, the extra friction will increase rope wear, but given a rope in good condition I wouldn't consider it an intrinsically unsafe practice.

[iZian]

In many schools that conclusion would be something of a leap of faith!

Perhaps I am misunderstood. I am only stating that for ladder work to commence that there would need to be a trained supervisor there, such as the Head of Drama. This, with good reason, doesn't make every situation safe, I meant to say that it means that we are complying with the rules for ladder work to take place.

If you think about it, if the person using the ladder is trained and happy to go up then what would be the problem?

[Stu]

I really don't want this to sound too much like a moan / but...

 

Is it safe to use the tallesope as a ladder? What I mean by this is climbing up half way and hanging on while you focus a light eg on a perch. (obviously with brakes applied and with outriggers)

 

I'd suggest you use an A-Frame or Zarges here, purely for the fact that the moment you need two hands to focus, your gonna be a bit stuck!

 

I can see where you are coming from, Dave, when you ask can we work on the TS without being in the basket at the top. If the 'pointer' were to harness themselves to a rung on the ladder then I see no problem in that

 

Sorry but I see a major problem in this! If you fell from the vertical ladder while harnessed into it, all sorts of things could happen. One of which could be the shock of your fall on the rung of the ladder causes it to snap and you to fall, or it could encourage the 'scope to fall. Neither scenario are good, and neither are one that I'd want to be involved with.

 

DO you think 1) That people as young as us should be using tallescopes

 

No I don't think you should be using them. In my opinion with the whole new blame culture that is about (wether it's a good or bad thing is another story) I don't think any school student should be going up a scope. Not are you only too young to be taking the physical risk to yourself and others, you simply aren't in a position experience wise to be making the sort of decisions your full time paid staff should be doing.

 

As for iZian for confirming your 'training' I don't particularly think he is in a position to do this. As from what I can work out he is under 18, these sort of decisions should be left to a responsible over 18yr old, i.e. the paid staff at the school. Sorry to sound like a miserable old bast rd but you have to look at the bigger picture here!

 

I was in your positions a couple of years ago, and the rest of the 'crew' and myself did some stupid things, but thankfully we weren't zooming about on Tallies all day. We had an A-frame which are a little bit safer in my opinion!

 

As for operations of 'scopes, I have a few points I feel should be undertaken every time a scope is used,

• 2 people on the bottom of the scope. And when I say this, I mean experienced people who know their Stage Lefts from their Stage Rights etc. IMHO there is nothing worse than chucking a couple of newbie casuals on there and hoping for them to do what you ask of them!
  
• The person in the basket is in charge. Full stop. If he wants to go somewhere, via a particular route, you go that way!
  
• Tell someone your about to move them.
  
• Put the brakes on when you've come to a stop.
  
• Use both outriggers wherever possible, and as close to the ground as you can get them. Having them 4-5inches of the deck just doesn't work.
  
• Be stood at the bottom of the scope ready and waiting for any problems. Sitting on the deck while someone is focussing isn't really good practice.
  

Etc. There are loads of other good tips floating about in this thread from other people.

 

Sorry this post sounds like a bit of a moan, but you really can't be too careful with 'scopes.

 

Stu

 

PS. From a moderators point of view, please keep personal discussion (i.e. debates between same venue crew members) to the PM or e-mail facility.

[paulears]

Stu makes some very sensible comments here.

 

From my point of view, the only safe way to use a scope safely is with a crew who really know each other. Just one person - doesn't matter if it's the one up top, or the ones at the bottom who isn't 'tuned in' to how it's done makes the situation dangerous. Whenever you're up top, you need to really trust the people at the bottom to keep you alive. I have 2 people in my crew I really trust - the others are great people, but are better at other tasks - saving my life isn't one of them. Watching a person focussing from a scope looks like everyone is working very slowly, but they're all taking it seriously.

 

Change of tack - has anyone had any experience of that ESAC 2000 weird alternative to the tallescope? steering wheel at the top??

[Stu]

From my point of view, the only safe way to use a scope safely is with a crew who really know each other. Just one person - doesn't matter if it's the one up top, or the ones at the bottom who isn't 'tuned in' to how it's done makes the situation dangerous.

 

I have 2 people in my crew I really trust... (snip)

I agree completely with this statement! It is basically about trust, and I've been in situations before where I've not trusted people. This normally isn't their fault, but more to do with the fact I've kind of inhereted inexperienced scope pushers.

 

I tend to get very ratty up a 'scope (as anyone who knows me will vouch for) and I think in the past I've shouted at the pushers, which is a bit unfair as it's not always their fault as they can't help being in put in that situation where they are all the crew we have left.

 

This is basically why I said in my last post I don't like using unexperienced people on the bottom of the 'scope. Luckily it's only ever been like this once or twice and 99% of the time I have a couple of the lads on the bottom I trust to get the job done.

 

Stu

[Ben...]

Although most of us seem to do it, if you read the instructions of the manufacturers, they INSIST the person at the top of the "talli" comes down to ground level before it is moved. (EVEN WITH THE OUT RIGGERS ON)

As discussed (possibly in excessive detail ) in this thread, considering only the static forces of the situation, it should usually be safe to move a 'scope with a person on it, if you're careful.

 

That said, I've got a suspicion that the manufacturers are more worried about the dynamic forces on the structure of the scope when you move it with a person on, and the subsequent increase in metal fatigue on the structure and the joints - especially as aluminium (unlike steel) tends to fail catastrophically, rather than gradually. When you give the bottom of the tower a shove to start and stop it moving, there will be large lateral forces on the vertical part that it (probably) wasn't really designed for. So if you are going to move it with people on, if nothing else, it'd be worth regularly checking the condition of the structure for distortion, fractures, or cracked welds.

[DSA]

I agree with all that has been said here, and I feel that at the moment we will definately come down from the basket before each move.

 

What is more of a problem, is not letting the students use the tallescope. Now I understand that this is far from 'ideal', however I would personally say that the older ones were responsible and mature enough to make wise decisions as to what happens when they are using the equipment. I understand that nothing beats experience, but everyone has to start somewhere. I am currently 18, and iZian is not far off (17, if not 18 already). I agree that the others are perhaps a bit too young at 15...

 

I feel that a sensible measure would be to send a couple of the more senior members of the crew on a course that covers access equipment in general (i.e. ladders, scaffold towers, and tallescopes). I am quite sure that the school would find the money for such a worthwhile activity. (by the way, if anyone has details of such a course, please pass it on! - (preferably not too expensive...)).

 

How would we possibly get a rig done if staff have to do the rigging - the caretaker is so overworked already, the head of drama is trying to direct rehearsals etc etc. If this were necessary, then we would have to get someone in from a hire company or whatever, and that would make a large dent in the budget for the production, which is already tight.

 

I also wholehartedly agree that the idea of using the tallescope as a 'ladder' is very inapropriate (even though I suggested it) - normally we would use a 'normal' extension ladder for this - however when you are hauling lanterns up by hand it can by a bit dodgy to say the least. Would a 'zarges' be better? - I have no experience with them (we certainly don't have one at school!).

 

The rigging is (I hope) now finished for this production, but there is some serious food for thought for the future. Would people suggest getting an engineer in (or similar) to install some sort of safe fall arrest point for the high work? (or is this pointless).

 

As far as I can see, common sense should prevail. I would hope that the points Stu makes (bullets), are common sense, because they are to me, and I would always state those to a 'beginner'. Thankyou for your points - they have been noted, and I look forward to any more that you may have.

 

Best Wishes,

David

[paulears]

wow - I've just found the web site for the esca access 'gadget' similar to a tallescope.

 

esca 2000

 

there are some videos showing how it can be used. I misread the ABTT mag. You go up the ladder, stand at the top and then all on your own - steer it around the stage. You could focus a bar totally on your own, moving along the bar by pulling the lever! one of the videos shows it going over cables. Amazing - looks a little lightweight, but you should see the videos.

paul

[Wilf dLampy]

I've decided its time I let the school know

Good. If there's one bit of H+S that is vitally important and all encompassing it is "if you think something is unsafe don't keep it to yourself, inform the correct people". If you are not sure about the safety of something, or not in a position to fix it yourself- ensuring someone who can knows, and does something, about it - is a vital process in accident prevention.

[robloxley]

The rigging is (I hope) now finished for this production, but there is some serious food for thought for the future.  Would people suggest getting an engineer in (or similar) to install some sort of safe fall arrest point for the high work? (or is this pointless).

IMHO what this thread suggests is that your school needs to pay someone who knows what they're on about to come in and write a risk assessment and safe operating practice document for all your access equipment (taking into account also the ages and experience of potential users and the likely level of adult supervision), and provide instruction in their use to the relevant staff and students, before any further use takes place.

[jot100]

Having just read this whole forum I have a question.

 

I always work alone using the tallescope when rigging and focusing lights as I am the only technican here. I havent had "offical" training yet Im on a course next week but I have experinece of using tallescopes and the college accepted this. What I want to know is, is it againts regulations to work alone? May I just add I always climb up and down I never pull myself along whilst in the basket (the previous technicain did this, fell and broke both of his arms!)

[Wilf dLampy]

You should NEVER work at heights without someone being on the ground in a support role, however you get there. For example if the 'scope- through no fault of the user- developed a fault and collapsed whilst in use, you would be left, possibly unconscious, on the floor. Or if you were working on a lantern which (for some reason we won't go into) became live and shocked you?

 

Make sure someone is present at all times, and they are aware of the "rescue plan" (as I call it) if something goes wrong. For example, if you have an accident whilst up the 'scope and lose consciousness, how are they going to get you down- and what are they going to do when you get there.

 

Of course things like this should be covered in your training next week.....