Help----What would you do?

[mikienorth]

Every bit of PA I have ever seen flown, be it fastened to a bar, or held on a motor, has had a safety attached to the frame, or top of the array. This often involves quite long steels running from the frame into the rigging point some distance above, as with Lighting truss, at least every time I've seen it flown. It can also involve the work done to attach a safety to a moving light.

A large amount of bars I go in, I see safties of some fashion (often homemade with dogs) on the PA if it is a substantial size.

 

I may well be wrong, and very wrong at that, but as far as I was aware, and I was told this by someone whose company sells ratchets, that they should only ever be used to secure, and not as a primary, or secondary means of suspension? Which is what it is described as above?

 

Anyway, I'm way way :) so I'll shut up now, maybe this needs splitting off before too many do this?

 

I hope the reason for this thread turns out to be nothing, in as much as the topic starter is found not to be at fault. Accidents are the worst thing, especially if the public are involved.

[Rob]

I don't really think rathet straps are designed to take a shock load like that - Anyone care to correct me?

[andy_s]

I don't really think rathet straps are designed to take a shock load like that - Anyone care to correct me?

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while I agree that ratchet straps aren't really for secondary suspension, the "shock" bit is what happens when the suspension goes from "no load" to "lots of load" when the primary fails. (like when a steel safety bond is wrapped loosely round the item - the looser the wrap, the greater the shock load. If the ratchet was tight, you wouldn't get a shock load. However, there are plenty of other reasons why a ratchet should not be usede as a secondary or primary suspension. I've certainly managed to break them in what I considered "normal" use, by overtightening, or getting the strap twisted. Lessons learnt luckily with no great damage to person or thing....

[Pete McCrea]

clipsnthrough truss to speaker handles.

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Do the handle have the load rating? Are they marked as rigging points? If not I'd doubt that this is a safe practice.

[djw1981]

D&B recommend the use of steels through these handles (side handels on C7/C4)as safteires in addiction to the flying frame. Therefore you have flying frame, steel safeties and ratchet strap tensed (and under its rate) as a furthwerr level of control, becuause we found that if a central cluster goes, and flip upside down, it can swing onto stage and hit front truss etc causing further problems. The ratchetstrap provides a control on the safety, and helps to control cabinet movement shgould teh safetu come into play due to a problem with the initial rigging.

 

On side of stage stacks we use ratchets to hold cabinets together - top above sub etc. They normally work fine when stacked, but enthusiastic band members sometimes like to jump onto them....scary huh, but it happens, so we tend to ratchet them to stop them moving. They are on a flat steeldeck stage and at no risk of falling by themseles.

 

Its difficult to safety stuff like C6 / E3 on stands, especially when teh stand is at the side of a stage, since there is little to safety the speaker to above, because it there was you would probably fly teh speaker off uit to get better sound....

 

We were advised by a rigger of some standing to use this sytem when we did a job with a central cluster for the first timem, ad it seems to be used by the main hire compnaies and venues we have done gigs in.

 

So effectively foir stuff flown at froint of stage, you have main rigging (eg flying frame); steel safety (rated etc) and ratchetstrap to control cabinet should it fall, oh ad a piece of string for angling small cabinets which spin when lifted on lighting motors............

[Locksmith]

On side of stage stacks we use ratchets to hold cabinets together - top above sub etc. They normally work fine when stacked, but enthusiastic band members sometimes like to jump onto them....scary huh, but it happens, so we tend to ratchet them to stop them moving.

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:)

I see you've rigged for a John Otway gig :** laughs out loud **:

He has a habit of climbing and jumping off anything on or near the stage.

 

http://backstagecrew.com/Otway/Gallery/image018-thumb.jpghttp://backstagecrew.com/Otway/Gallery/image019-thumb.jpghttp://backstagecrew.com/Otway/Gallery/image020-thumb.jpg

 

We used a similar method at this and many other of his gigs at Olympia. We also hid our 20 foot A frame

[Andrew C]

I see you've rigged for a John Otway gig  :)

He has a habit of climbing and jumping off anything on or near the stage.

 

We used a similar method at this and many other of his gigs at Olympia. We also hid our 20 foot A frame

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Done one of his gigs too; he's barking mad!! (But Really Free!)

[Peter Russell]

d&b recommend the use of steels through these handles (side handles on C7/C4)as safteies in addition to the flying frame

That's strange they have never mentioned that to me and don't mention it in the C3/C4/C7/F2/B1/Max Rigging Manual (PDF Link) and I would be surprised if they did, I would hardly expect a plastic handle to do anything if a 54kg speaker decided to go somewhere.

You also mention a centre cluster "going upside down" I don't see how this would be possible as the flying points for a C4/C7 are above the centre of gravity of the cabinet so unless you do something very silly. All of the flying chains supplied by d&b are rated with a safety factor of twelve times there maximum working load so the cluster would not go anywhere even if one link failed, leaving you time to stop your event, evacuate the surrounding area and deal with the problem.

 

Its difficult to safety stuff like C6 / E3 on stands, especially when the stand is at the side of a stage, since there is little to safety the speaker to above, because it there was you would probably fly the speaker off it to get better sound....

Safety wires are for flown loudspeakers, your risk assessment for a speaker on a stand should allow for an exclusion zone so that no-one can knock it over therefore negating the need for a secondary safety point.

 

On side of stage stacks we use ratchets to hold cabinets together - top above sub etc. They normally work fine when stacked, but enthusiastic band members sometimes like to jump onto them....scary huh, but it happens, so we tend to ratchet them to stop them moving. They are on a flat steeldeck stage and at no risk of falling by themseles

How high are these steel decks that are in "no risk of falling over" if they are much more than one metre and don't have a large base the entire thing could topple with the PA attached to the top. It is good practice to ratchet strap ground stacks together but also to allow an exclusion zone around them,

1) in case they should move/fall over

2) to prevent any audience member getting to close to a speaker that could be emitting high SPL levels at close range.

 

If someone started jumping on any equipment that I had installed for an event they would be told to stop very quickly, so as not to endanger themselves or anyone else

 

Now that I have corrected some of the inaccuracies in the information provided I would like to point out that if you are not qualified to give advise on a subject like rigging then please refrain from doing so.

 

Peter

[djw1981]

I stand admonished.

 

But as far as your C7 comment goes, the last time I had a C7 in my hand, the side handle - inset on the sides - were metal.

 

The steel deck to which I was referringw as a 10m by 8m stage. The cabinets were held together by straps looped through their handles to stop them moving due to enthusastic musicians. There was a 2 metre clearway between audience barriers and front of stage which was used by security staff and a cameraman. The cabinets have fairly large bases, but were strapped down as described for additional safety.

 

I accept your point about loudspeaker cabinet which sit upon a stand (ie pole hole in teh bottom), but surely those which hang froma bracket off the stand would need a safety steel / chain? I am genuinely asking here.

 

My original post was more statibg what we did, and I have now obviously received feedback saying that somethings I am doing are lkess than ideal and I will work to remedy this. I thought that this forum was for discussing ideas, and layong oneself open to comments. I did not realise that I had to be qualified in order to comment, however since I now do, I will shut up.

[Peter Russell]

I accept your point about loudspeaker cabinet which sit upon a stand (ie pole hole in the bottom), but surely those which hang from a bracket off the stand would need a safety steel / chain? I am genuinely asking here.

d&b state in the Manual for their loudspeaker stand mount "Secondary safeties must always be provided and used when flying or fixing loudspeaker loads overhead."

I would not consider a loudspeaker on a speaker stand to be "overhead" so therefore it does not require a secondary safety.

Whenever I have rigged speakers on stands (usually using Manfrotto wind up stands) above head height then yes I would use a secondary safety attachment.

But as far as your C7 comment goes, the last time I had a C7 in my hand, the side handle - inset on the sides - were metal.

I thought they were plastic, sorry if I am wrong, but the point is that they are not a rated safety point (at least there is no mention of them being rated in the C4/C7 manual or in the rigging manual)

]I thought that this forum was for discussing ideas, and laying oneself open to comments. I did not realise that I had to be qualified in order to comment, however since I now do, I will shut up.

I didn't mean to put you off from contributing to the forums but you have to be careful when posting as inaccurate advise could lead to a serious accident.

Peter

[Andrew C]

SNIP

Whenever I have rigged speakers on stands (usually using Manfrotto wind up stands) above head height then yes I would use a secondary safety attachment.

SNIP

Peter

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Hmm... But to what? If your stand is in the middle of nowhere, with nothing above... and if you don't need a safety there, why anywhere else?

 

I am not saying you shouldn't, if you can, but lets think it through!

[strandgsx]

Thanks for the replies from all you peeps for this thread.

 

The situation regarding the speaker is almost solved, it did very much look like the wall bracket was tampered with by the injured party, and there are witnesses to conferm that her and her boyfriend spent most of the night hanging around the speaker in question and playing around with it.

 

It was secured to the wall using a recommended mount made by ohm, it was all installed correctly and there were no manufacturing faults found on inspection, the punter had managed to undo the allen bolt by means of a shoddy leatherman job and removed it.

 

It has been a very scary few weeks with this over my head, but all being well the small population who apply themselves to sueing culture have been thwarted.

 

I will leave another post to keep everyone (who may be interested) updated on the situation, but once again. Many thanks for the replys and advice, you all helped very much.

 

Cheers

Mark

[Bryson]

Out of interest, does it appear that they were undoing the speaker to try and make it fall on them (and hence get the compensation) or were they attempting to steal it?

 

Either way, it looks like tamper-proof bolts may well make a decent investment for everyone involved in this kind of business.

[Dave]

On a related note, it is worth saying that risk assessments should include the possibility of such actions by punters (who may be drunk), especially if there is the likelihood that people other than the perpetrator may get injured.

[Mush]

On a related note, it is worth saying that risk assessments should include the possibility of such actions by punters (who may be drunk), especially if there is the likelihood that people other than the perpetrator may get injured.

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Punters getting out there 2.99 multi-tool and trying to half inch a speaker cab should hopefully be low on the risk schedule, but now it comes up..

 

Hex socket (allen) heads are designated high tensile steel, tamperproof, er resistant, fixings may not be, some thread locking compounds are virtualy permanent, metal to metal, in shield anchors.