speakers and amps

[Fiona]

Am having a blonde day......am looking for new speakers (4 of) and amp for small studio venue .......seats approx 100. Sounds not really my area, so looking for advice of what sort of thing would be suitable......simple language please.....don't go getting all technical on me, I DON'T DO SOUND!!!!! Sure there must be a kind helpful noise boy (or girl!) out there that will tell me exactly what I am looking for.......cheers! :(

[gareth]

What are the speakers going to be used for? Speech reinforcement? Music playback? Effects playback? Or a bit of everything?

 

And where are they going to sit? Permanently attached to a pros arch, or mobile? If mobile, are they going to sit on stands? Will they ever need to attach to scenery?

 

Is there already a system in the space that these are going to supplement? Or is it a whole new system?

 

Sorry, that's a lot of questions, but it's stuff we need to know if we are to give you advice that's in any way meaningful!!

[Fiona]

Speakers will be used for a bit of everything in students' performances, so mainly music and effects...very occasionally mics (only for voice - never instuments)

 

Need to be permanently attached to walls in each corner (so as to stop pesky students fiddling with them) seating configuration is very flexible so figured that if I have a speaker in each corner sound will work wherever the audience are......thats my theory anyway........

 

Already have system in place but in only consists of 2 speakers so if the audience are in the wrong place it sounds appauling, and the old amp has just packed up ...hence a good opportunity to replace the whole lot....

 

Any suggestions :( ???

 

thanks.......

[Rob]

What sort of budget are you looking at? Speaker choice generally comes down to personal preference, so everyone will have differing opinions on what sounds best. :(

[Fiona]

but how do I know what size speakers to get and how powerful the amp needs to be......in terms of how many watts per speaker and per channel of the amp. I guess I will run 2 speakers off each channel?? Correct me if thats not the best way of doing it!

With regards to budgets about £300 for the amp (tops) and £150 ish for each speaker......

Room is fairly small - about 20m x 15m so it doesn't need to be a huge system, just robust enough to put up with students!!!

bit out of my depth with purchasing sound equipment!! Yes I know I should try and speak to a reliable company directly, just thought I'd give you guys the opportunity to wow me with your knowledge and suggestions!! :(

[James]

but how do I know what size speakers to get and how powerful the amp needs to be?

 

1st decide what speakers you need.

 

The criteria you need are obviously biased by your requirements but some of the things you might consider are..

 

-do they look acceptable

-are they easy to rig/derig

-do they attach to walls/lighting bars easily?

-are they powerful enough.

 

as for how loud they need to be - you have to decide that.

 

Have a look at the specifications of some speakers, look at the sensitivity figure which will be something like 100dB 1W 1M.

 

Now the further you get away from the speaker, the quieter it it.

 

Sound works by the inverse square law, as in as the distance doubles, the sound goes down by four,

 

So, put 1W into these theoretical speakers and you should get

100dB @ 1m

94dB @ 2m

88dB @ 4m

82dB @ 8m

76dB @ 16m

 

But speakers can normally handle more than 1W into them, so you can add another 6dB for every time you double the power to the max RMS value for the speaker.

 

OK I'm at work and in a hurry and don't know what I'm talking about so I need to go but I will check my information and post back later.

 

And I know what you are talking about - I don't do sound either :(

[gareth]

but how do I know what size speakers to get and how powerful the amp needs to be......in terms of how many watts per speaker and per channel of the amp.  I guess I will run 2 speakers off each channel??  Correct me if thats not the best way of doing it! 

With regards to budgets  about £300 for the amp (tops) and £150 ish for each speaker......

Room is fairly small - about 20m x 15m so it doesn't need to be a huge system, just robust enough to put up with students!!!

No offence, but at that kind of budget, once you've factored in an allowance for cable, mounting brackets, etc., you're not going to get an awful lot - not if robustness and longevity are criteria.

 

Perhaps you might find something second-hand - many of the major audio suppliers have used equipment in stock - www.lmcaudio.co.uk is just one that springs to mind.

[James]

As Garath Says:

 

No offence, but at that kind of budget, once you've factored in an allowance for cable, mounting brackets, etc., you're not going to get an awful lot - not if robustness and longevity are criteria.

 

And that is all true however I have seen it happen, but it will not be half as good as what twice as much would get you.

 

You don't say how big your venue is but one option is to use 'domestic' speakers and amps.

 

This option wouldn't help if you are only after high SPL's and regularly want to re-enforce vocals but I have heard it used effectivly for sound effects and music only.

 

I've seen domestic speakers used quite well on normal speaker stands or on their sides on TV stands.

 

You say that this is for students to use. Will they be operating as well?

 

If so you need to think a little bit about safety. Basically you don't want the studants blowing up your nice new speakers so make sure that you don't get an amp that is over powered compared to the speakers

 

Yes you can drive two speakers off of one output of an amplifier if the combined impedance is above the minimun the amp can cope with pluss a healthy margin.

 

However if you do so then you cannot localise at all. You have no control over the sopund coming from that area, and as a sound designer (occasionaly) that is fairly important

 

What mixer, sources or Mics do you have and will be using on this system.

 

Is this in a school and do you need to employ an electrician or contractor to run structured cabling to the speakers, or mic sockets.

 

Sorry about the qustions but there realy isn't enough information at the moment to be able to tell you specifically that this is what you need.

 

Good Luck

 

James

[Metro]

YOU CANT GO WRONG WITH DECSENT KIT! Doing these kind of things on a small budget in my opinion is not such a wise idea. A bit extra spent on something like Shermann speakers and a QSC/Chameleon amp and just as importantly - good cabling - Vann Damme? can really give you such good sound. Just please dont fall into the trap of just buying something because it is cheap. Hope you get something sorted!

 

Richard

[Bryson]

If your budget is that low, I'd look at used equipment as Gareth says. I couldn't find the link to thier used section from the frontpage, but had it bookmarked:

 

LMC Used Equipment

 

Looking through there, even most of that is going to be beyond your budget - perhaps one of the C-audio amps and the Martin Audio ICT300 speakers? There's only two of them, mind.

 

Those ASS cabs look a bit nasty, but I've got some of their stuff and it actually sounds pretty good, considering.

[James]

YOU CANT GO WRONG WITH DECENT KIT! Doing these kind of things on a small budget in my opinion is not such a wise idea

 

Hmmm.

 

I agree. If you were refering to my recomendation of domestic equipment to an educational establishment then I would heartily stand by it.

 

They do not apear need high SPL's

 

With a 1K total budget to replace what they have then they can't be expecting to use it excessivly.

 

Many HIFI retailers offer serious discounts to schools.

 

with £150 per amp then you should be ably to get a reasaonably well powered class A amp that should sound much better than a QSC.

 

and if all they are using it for is mainly SFX playback then why get more than they need now.

 

I would recomend they install what they can afford and either share the cost of a fuller re-enforcement system with their music department or hire something in with someone who knows what they are talking about on the few occasions that they need it.

 

Richard, sorry if I got of on the wrong foot and you wern't shouting at me but all I was doing was attempting to flag up the fact that Fiona has to do a fair bit of research and answer a lot more questions to herself before she realises what it is that she needs to go for.

 

Peace,

 

James

[Paul J Need]

Just to put my halfpennys worth in.........

 

Sound is one of the most subjective subjects in entertainment. EVERYONE has an opinion.........

 

A "sound" you like will be hated by the next person ( No matter how much experience they have working with audio)

 

My advice is to spend as much as possible on the loudspeaker - this is what moves the air ... ALWAYS add a graphic EQ to the system so you can tune to the room, and never buy a speaker before you have heard it.

 

thats all I am saying

 

ta ta :(

[Metro]

Not at all James, I think I have got the wrong end of the stick, I only briefly looked over what this was about, I think she is looking for more of a Hifi system (In which case I agree with your suggestions) as apposed to something bigger for live, concert work! (which is my main area of work and knowledge)

[Metro]

QUOTE

My advice is to spend as much as possible on the loudspeaker

 

True Paul but as im sure you may be aware that amps and cabling is just as important - You can be using brilliant speakers with the sweetest eq on them but with rubbish cabling and amp I think your taking one step foward and ten steps back!

[Dave]

Richard,

 

QUOTE

My advice is to spend as much as possible on the loudspeaker

 

True Paul but as im sure you may be aware that amps and cabling is just as important - You can be using brilliant speakers with the sweetest eq on them but with rubbish cabling and amp I think your taking one step foward and ten steps back!

I am sorry to have to say this but you are way off the mark here. Paul is a wise old guy and knows what he's talking about.

 

In an audio system, the things that have the most influence on quality are the transducers at either end, ie the mics and speakers. It is simply not true that "amps and cabling is just as important".

 

Amplifiers and the other electronics do make some difference, but it is far less. Differences between different makes or models of amplifier generally only become evident when they are driven hard. Modern electronics is such that designing equipment with good performance is relatively easy and inexpensive. Designing speakers is both a black art and something where using more expensive components does bring about an increase in quality.

 

And as far as cabling goes, I think you've been reading too many hifi magazines :(. I can tell you categorically that in 99.9% of live sound situations you will not be able to tell the difference between different makes of cable of the same cross sectional area and with similar stranding arrangements. (And no, Fiona's case is not the 0.1%).

 

A sound system with £200 speakers and a £1000 amp will be rather grotty.

 

A sound system with £1000 speakers and a £200 amp will be rather good.

 

Upgrading the amp to a £1000 one will not make anything like the difference that the speaker upgrade makes.

 

(In the above, I have assumed that the different pieces of kit are of similar specification - the idea is to illustrate relative levels of sound quality. A d&b E3 is a popular choice for a quality small speaker in theatres, but for less money you could get something larger with a lot more air-shifting ability).

 

There is probably a 25:1 price ratio between the cheapest speakers and the dearest (of comparable size), and the difference in quality is huge. With amplifers, the ratio is probably 4:1 and the difference in quality is not that marked.

 

Cabling doesn't enter into the equation. You could wire the system with TRS stolen from the lampies, or any other flex for that matter, and it would not sound any different to using an expensive audiophile cable of the same size.

 

If budgets are tight then concentrating resources on the speakers and saving on the amps is a sensible way of getting the best sound quality for your money.

 

To re-word your analogy:

 

Good speakers, good amps = ten steps forward (100% quality, 100% cost)

 

Good speakers, cheap amps = ten steps forward, one step back (90% quality, 50% cost)

 

Cheap speakers, good amps = one step forward, ten steps back (10% quality, 50% cost)

 

Dave