niclights Posted February 12, 2006 Share Posted February 12, 2006 Hi all, I'm desperately trying to finally make long needed improvements to my venues acoustics, so I thought I'd drop this in here to see if anyone has any suggestions. Venue is live music, mainly modern 'breaking' rock/indie bands. 700 cap, 3xEAWKF850 p/side, low ceiling, hard walls. Looking both to improve quality for audience and for stage monitoring (especially S/C!) The problem is common to many similar venues, but the ideal solution seems not so easy. I need to address two areas - walls & ceiling, but without getting too scientific. Criteria are fire retardency, durability (esp. walls), lightweight due to fixing restrictions (solid fix points in ceiling are concrete beams @ 11' spacing, inbetween is plasterboard) and almost certainly waterproof - low ceiling = beer, not to mention general sweat & cigarette smoke. Because of the latter I have ruled out standard acoustic foam or fiber tiles. Most important as always is cost-effectiveness! The best idea I have come up with so far for the ceiling is to make pouches out of waterproof, fire-retardent material filled with rockwool and suspend via eyelets/bungee cords.For the walls I am considering perforated steel sheet fixed on battens with coated rockwool behind. I have been told that in Holland they use commonly available panels of straw mixed with concrete, but I cannot find this in the UK. Any ideas/experiences greatly appreciated. Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 I'd get in an acoustics consultant who will show you how not to make a costly mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furryface Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 Simplest thing to do with the walls would be to add some drapes. This would soften and break up any reflections. As for the roof I'd suggest making sure that the 850s (not the most directional of cabs) are as high as possible and firing down into the crowd of hot sweaty heaving masses so that they absorb the frequencies thus not bouncing back into the ceiling. Beyond simple things like draping and aiming, you'd really need to talk to some kind of consultant. Having worked in similar venues these kind of trick really help. In short aim energy at flesh not masonry and soften masonry wherever possible. Furry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Pearce Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 The treating on the walls at my church is apparently crushed glass. It's paint-able, and looks like it would survive a coating of beer, though it may stain. (Just paint it black...) Though as has already been said get an acoustics consultant to check it over. They'll know the best solution for your room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niclights Posted February 13, 2006 Author Share Posted February 13, 2006 Thanks all so far. I have been persuing some professional advice too, but I certainly won't be paying anyone for it! This has to be a general cost-effective solution. Stacks are used in two locations and never end up exactly in the same place etc. Drapes are one of the more obvious solutions, but I'm trying to avoid mainly because of beer/smoke etc. Ceiling is too low to fly/point down and flesh is all very well but it tends to vary in quantity and is never present during S/C :) Crushed glass treating sounds interesting. I will ask about this. Ta! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 I've got a sample of a product here called 'phonoroc' which is an acoustic wall panel which claims high impact resistance. Google thows up the manufacturers name - it might be worth giving them a call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Pearce Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 Is it a flat surface with lots of holes, not dissimilar to suspended ceiling tiles but a lot harder? If so thats what we have at church. I vaguely remember seeing phonoroc on a box somewhere at church... Will try to get a pic tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 The bit I have looks like big grains of sand, coloured white, grey and black, bonded into a flat sheet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Pearce Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 That sounds about right, ours are all white, but they were painted to fit with the venue decor. I couldn't quite describe it, but your description is closer than mine to what we have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niclights Posted February 14, 2006 Author Share Posted February 14, 2006 Wonderful, thankyou! Very interesting. I found the website - http://www.acoustic.co.uk/H&H/Home.htm Although Google linked 'phonoroc' to them I haven't found that particular one on their site yet. Lots of other acoustic thingies - need time to wade through the many options. <_< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Lewis Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 I have been persuing some professional advice too, but I certainly won't be paying anyone for it! I guess that acoustic treatment tends to fall into two camps.... the "stuff it full of absorption - it can only help the sound" approach, and, the "pay a consultant who knows what s/he's doing and get a balanced, predictable result". Approach 1 might work, or might sound awful and be a costly disaster. The owner of the Station nightclub certainly got more than he bargained for with his acoustic "treatment". The second approach should (hopefully) give a predictable and verifiable improvement that meets the customer's requirements and meets all related safety and building codes. It does seem somewhat strange that although we pay structural engineers, electrical engineers etc., for their skill and knowledge, that acousticians may not be worth it ? ;-) Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niclights Posted February 14, 2006 Author Share Posted February 14, 2006 I have spoken to that company and have arranged for a visit on Thursday which is of course free. I meant that I am not going to pay for a whole package of survey/install etc. I just don't consider the environment suitable for that sort of treatment given the way the sound source/room content and atmospherics are not a constant. I'm very much aware of false economy which is why I am taking my time over this and exploring all options, including posting here <_<I understand the principles behind removing reflections ie. irregular surfaces/non-perpendicular etc. Given the rather dynamic nature of the room most seem to agree so far that a general approach is best - the real mission here is finding the suitable product/material for the environment.That company have some very interesting products, yet in all my searching I had not discovered them even with such an obvious URL! Anyone know of any similar acoustic treatment material specialists? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alqueenan Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 Caution: Lurker with ruffled feathers ;) As Simon will no doubt testify, acoustics is often far more subtle than people would think. This is why it takes so long to actually train as an acoustician! There is no shortage of companies offering various absorption and insulation products for sale but to know how to use them (the good ones that is, the ones that actually *do* something...!), you really need to have a good handle on what acoustic energy does to fluids and solids at different frequencies! I know that sounds a bit pompous but as Simon rightly points out, it's amazing how many people think they can do after ten minutes' Googling what some of us have spent between three and five years training to do! I have spoken to that company and have arranged for a visit on Thursday which is of course free. I meant that I am not going to pay for a whole package of survey/install etc. I just don't consider the environment suitable for that sort of treatment given the way the sound source/room content and atmospherics are not a constant. By atmospherics, do you mean 'ambience' or literally the physical atmospheric properties, i.e. humidity etc? If the former, there is an wealth of experience in the acoustics community regarding the spatial and sensory qualities of a room. If the latter, the behaviour of acoustic energy at different frequencies in humid conditions is very well documented. The point is that there is always (or almost always) some way of addressing acoustical issues in a way that let you retain the character of the space, as long as you can identify where the problems are arising and which are the best measures to take. With regard to the position of your sound sources, let's not confuse PA installation consultancy with acoustic consultancy. I understand the principles behind removing reflections ie. irregular surfaces/non-perpendicular etc. Given the rather dynamic nature of the room most seem to agree so far that a general approach is best - the real mission here is finding the suitable product/material for the environment. Why do you think it's just a case of putting up the right materials? If you have a fundamental problem with room modes or flanking paths, all the absorptive panels and crushed glass (never heard of that one) won't address the problem. Don't listen to anyone who walks into the room, looks around for a second and thinks they can tell you how to comprehensively improve your acoustics - you need to find out what is actually going on and the only way to do that is to do a survey. This needn't cost a fortune; there are lots of competing acoustical consultancies. Have a look at the website of the Association of Noise Consultants: http://www.association-of-noise-consultants.co.uk Hope this is helpful. Sorry if it sounds a bit ranty but there you go. Q p.s. I like the tongue-in-cheek comment about stuffing things full of absorption! Reminds me of the woman who was told by an "expert" (her grandson's 16 year old best mate) that she should stuff her walls with torn-up eggboxes to get rid of a flutter echo problem. She actually paid someone to stuff eggboxes in her stud walls. Ohhhhh God... ;) This is what happens when you combine a stupid old wives' tale (eggboxes on studio walls do *not* work) and a smartass 16 year old. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbsy Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 She was lucky they used EMPTY eggboxes considering the quality of the advice. Hmmm...wonder what the absorbtion coefficient of chicken eggs is? Seriously, I've stayed out of this thread until now because I basically agree with the previus poster. When constrained by budget I've attempted my own acoustic treatments in the past...and have never had good, predictable results. This is after watching the pros work and doing lots of reading too! BTW, if you DO decide to go the route of asking a specialist, I can heartily recommend a company called Sandy Brown Associates. They're on the professional list linked above and I've worked with them on several projects. They really know their stuff and are nice guys to boot! Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jivemaster Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 The materials are relatively cheap, The labour to fit them will not be. The wisdom of what to fit and where to fit it could save you lots, get a better job done and find materials you didn't know. Random absorption is rarely not broadband and will leave you with odd frequency bands to tame. Surface finish is usually critical to hf properties, clog some pores with paint and the hf reflects rather than is absorbed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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