A&H Digital Desk

[Scouse Dave]

I expect this will be unveiled tomorrow:

 

ilive link

 

Interesting.....

 

If anybody gets any news on pricing, that would be handy...

 

Dave M

 

(Lookin' darn cute there, Carey)

(I meant the desk)

(You might look cute too - I wouldn't really have an opinion on that)

(I'm going to stop now)

[Russ]

Veeeery interesting. It's got to be either a lot cheaper or a lot better than the DiGiCo to be able to compete though. And the "a lot cheaper" option sounds good to me...

[Sim]

Wow, looks nice.

[marc]

It can look all it wants too,

 

call me old fashioned but I tend to base opinions of a desk on the sound going in and out of it, it is a rather interesting copy of a D5 though, be interesting to see how the software gets on, is it windows based?

 

Mk

[J Pearce]

Very nice. Just what I need for that gig on wednesday, somehow I think its slightly out of my budget though.

[dbuckley]

... it is a rather interesting copy of a D5 though...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

In what ways do you see this is similar to a D5?

 

I see it as the first of a new style of mixer, where mixers aren't actually mixers anymore.

[Chris Hinds]

Console has 3 processing sections: The engine, the surface and the touchscreen. The surface and then engine run custom code on a PPC chip. The touchscreen runs on x86 using what I believe is a Linux build but I'll check later. Pricing is 'around or slightly below that of the PM5d'. They were very clear yesterday that the desk was a pre production prototype and they were working on the software still, especially for the touch screen. In a few instances that locked up but the nature of the desk is such that it continues to pass audio and the surface can still be used to mix even if the screen had failed and needed a reboot. The A&H tech was able to reboot the screen and the console continued to pass audio throughout. Sadly I didn't get a chance to chat to Carey though I may today.

[marc]

... it is a rather interesting copy of a D5 though...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

In what ways do you see this is similar to a D5?

 

I see it as the first of a new style of mixer, where mixers aren't actually mixers anymore.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Let me see, shape, layout,

 

It’s no where near as good, in terms of screen and what you need to see on a digital desk. There were lots of code moments going on today, if they had and sense they would have waited until it was a proper build before trying to show what was effectively a door stop this time round.

 

Nice idea lads, but the market for that type of digital desk is full, go make something to rival a Yamaha’s small desks, that’s a better bet.

 

I say this as Midas are working on a digital desk as are cadac, in real terms there will be to many better companies making a better job of a digital work surface.

 

"I see it as the first of a new style of mixer, where mixers aren't actually mixers anymore"

 

What do you want a desk to be then? A toaster? a sound desk is a sound desk, if it is not easy to walk up and use what’s the point, I don’t want to have to spend a day at every manufacturers offices learning a new OS for a digital desk in case I come across one on a gig, at the moment all I can see the use of a digital desk for is a long running tour or a show, where you have 3 weeks of rehearsals to program it in, there is no way you have time to program a desk on the fly trying to do a gig.

 

Mk

[Russ]

I only had a quick peek at it today, but it seemed to me probably more intuitive than a DiGiCo in terms of the way it's laid out. Tell me, what is it lacking compared to the DiGiCo?

 

It looks like it's definitely trying to compete with the D5 though - it even has a 176-channel configuration! But rumour has it that it will undercut DiGiCo substantially in price, which will make it a fairly attractive proposition for some setups. It's definitely comparing apples and oranges if one is £30k cheaper than the other, I think you'll agree.

 

Cadac have missed the boat completely as I see it. Something like 80% of the west end are using DiGiCo now, which is somewhat surprising in itself, and it's going to take a further miracle to get them to switch back. Cadac's excuse was that "digital isn't ready yet", which is remarkably short-sighted of them while their entire market was being stolen from under their noses by a digital desk...

 

The Digidesign VENUE is the exciting prospect when it comes to live sound at the moment, if they can pull it off.

 

 

edit: I had a good play with a Studer Vista 8 (digital broadcast console) at the Harman stand - now that's an intuitive digital console - the channel strip consists of a colour LCD touchscreen with pots and switches cunningly overlaid on top, which means you can get full EQ graphs for every channel. Blows the DiGiCo out of the water in terms of interface in my opinion.

[dbuckley]

Comparing to D5, the D5 has channel controls vertically (like traditional), the iLive (which I've not seen in the flesh, being in the wrong country) looks horizontal. The D5 also needs the screens much more, the iLive has stuff to indicate where knobs are.

 

"I see it as the first of a new style of mixer, where mixers aren't actually mixers anymore"

 

What do you want a desk to be then? A toaster? a sound desk is a sound desk, if it is not easy to walk up and use what’s the point, I don’t want to have to spend a day at every manufacturers offices learning a new OS for a digital desk in case I come across one on a gig, at the moment all I can see the use of a digital desk for is a long running tour or a show, where you have 3 weeks of rehearsals to program it in, there is no way you have time to program a desk on the fly trying to do a gig.

 

The iLive changes how you wire stuff up. Up till now, all mixers have been, well, mixers. D5 and a few others excepted, generally with a bunch of XLRs on the back. The iLive splits the mixing functions into a box which you leave backstage that does the mixing, and a control surface, or rather a range of control surfaces.

 

But more generally, I expect the evolution of digi mix systems to be similar to those of lighting desks. We're early in the piece, we've got the first few ideas out there, the D5, the yams, the TT24, now the iLive, all bringing different ideas and approaches.

 

And I expect the sound engineers a decade from now will be familiar with new toys and their operating systems, and those of us without those skills will be in the same place as lampies who dont understand who to program an Express and a hog.

 

 

Nice idea lads, but the market for that type of digital desk is full, go make something to rival a Yamaha’s small desks, that’s a better bet.

 

Agree. The iLive looks and feels "expensive", and against the established players may have a hard time competing.

 

I say this as Midas are working on a digital desk as are cadac, in real terms there will be to many better companies making a better job of a digital work surface.

 

I think its a mistake to assume that the existing manufacurers willbe the winners in the world of digital consoles. There is still everything to play for, especially as you look lower down the scale.

[Peter Russell]

The iLive changes how you wire stuff up. Up till now, all mixers have been, well, mixers. D5 and a few others excepted, generally with a bunch of XLRs on the back. The iLive splits the mixing functions into a box which you leave backstage that does the mixing, and a control surface, or rather a range of control surfaces.

I'm afraid I have to disagree with that statement, The D5's DSP is built into the console only the ins and outs are remoted in the stage racks and Yamaha have been using an external DSP box with a seperate control surface for the last five years with the PM1D.

The thing I find interesting about the iLive is that it has chosen to use ethersound as it's audio protocol meaning that you only need standard cat 5 cables between FOH and Stage (it will be interesting to see what latency issues the desk has though :unsure: ),

One of my bugs with Digico has been the use of optical cables that are a nightmare to try and repair when out on the road, Yamaha's use of 68pin SCSI connectors is any better either :D

 

But more generally, I expect the evolution of digi mix systems to be similar to those of lighting desks. We're early in the piece, we've got the first few ideas out there, the D5, the yams, the TT24, now the iLive, all bringing different ideas and approaches.

 

Digital desks aren't exactly that knew an idea, Yamaha have been producing digital mixing consoles in one form or another for quite a while now the 02R was released 10 years ago and the old range of DMP mixers (DMP-11& DMP-7) were around before that...

 

Just my 2p

 

Peter

 

moderation: Topic moved from General Tech Chat to Sound

[Simon Lewis]

Peter,

 

your comments are valid, and it's true that Digico and Yamaha have championed the concept of the mixer being the work surface, while the audio manipulation is carried out by an on stage box. However, these still follow closely the traditional mixing desk paradigm - i.e. "large mixer at FOH controls sound on stage"

 

Where the Allen & Heath concept proves interesting is the idea that almost anything could run the iDR64 on stage box. The control surfaces I saw yesterday conform generally to the digital mixer concept, but one could also use one of the iDR series wall mount controllers to access functions in the iDR64.

 

Given the increasing move towards systems integration plus network transport and control, this is a logical step. In fact I can think of applications where complex in / out control is needed, which at times requires a full blown mixer to operate and at other times a simple wall mount touch panel is sufficient.

 

By the time we have HiQNet or Stardraw Control running in our venues, the 'mixing desk' may well be just one of a number of systems that control and report on the sound, lighting and AV devices in use. Eventually, we could move to a show control type axiom, where all systems run under one master controller...

 

 

 

Incidently, hats off to Carey D for spending 8 hours solid talking to visitors about the XOne systems...!

 

Simon

 

PS, the Cobranet / Ethersound battle is starting to look interesting..... but that's another topic!

[Russ]

In my opinion, if you have to learn how to operate a digital desk, then the human interface is bad. It's not like lighting, all the basic concepts are the same between mixing consoles. Nobody has really thought of a different paradigm for sound mixing, and I doubt they will considering how widely-accepted and intuitive the current channels/groups/auxes/matricies/VCAs paradigm is.

 

If you give any sound engineer worth his salt an analogue console he hasn't seen before, he shouldn't need more than 5 minutes to get familiar with it. I really don't see why digital should be different, but I haven't seen a digital desk with that sort of intuitive interface yet (except maybe the Studer Vista I mentioned earlier).

 

Food for thought, anyhow.

[mackerr]

Peter,

 

your comments are valid, and it's true that Digico and Yamaha have championed the concept of the mixer being the work surface, while the audio manipulation is carried out by an on stage box. However, these still follow closely the traditional mixing desk paradigm - i.e. "large mixer at FOH controls sound on stage"

 

Where the Allen & Heath concept proves interesting is the idea that almost anything could run the iDR64 on stage box. The control surfaces I saw yesterday conform generally to the digital mixer concept, but one could also use one of the iDR series wall mount controllers to access functions in the iDR64.

Digico and Yamaha have a large control surface because in live sound you need quick access to all the controls. While you can't remove the D5 surface from the equation as it is also the mixing engine, you can run and program a PM1D from a laptop, the CS1 control surface is not neccessary to the operation of the console. You have full access to all controls from the computer. You can even hook up a DM1000 to the computer to give you a moving fader hardware interface for the computer that is running the PM1D. Scenes are easily accessed via midi or GPI inputs. Outbound machine control can also be via midi or GPI. I believe the D5 can also be run from a computer, you just have to keep the surface backstage somewhere. The Allen & Heath digital mixer looks very interesting. It remains to be seen if they can break into a new price catagory with this product. It will be tough to compete at the significantly higher price point then A&H have traditionally had to.

 

Mac

[Big Dave]

In my opinion, if you have to learn how to operate a digital desk, then the human interface is bad. .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What your learning with any digital desk is the software and how to make the best of it. Try getting the best out of any software without learning it. I can't speak for Yamy desks, but certainly on the D5 I can get a basic set up done in not much longer than on an H3K. Indeed, I carry a couple of basic set ups on my USB key so it can often be done in no time at all.

 

It will be interesting to see what the final production I Live model is capable of and sounds like. Interesting digital times ahead.