Buying Equipment

[J Pearce]

One local hire company will do our church 1 or 2 small favours with lighting gear if it is a quiet time in his books, if it is busy we have to pay. This works well, and if the gear is a necessity we pay. If it is a nicety we hope he can lend us the stuff.

[Mr.Si]

I wonder if I might qualify for a grant from somewhere such as the Prince's Trust or Business Link or something?

 

Maybe the PSA might be able to help me out as I am now an Affiliate / Individual member.

[Jivemaster]

Sometimes its a matter of buying secondhand and buying only that which will do the job and not have 90% of the functionality left over.

 

Buy a basic system and upgrade a part at a time,

 

Freebies! Doing cheepies just devalues your (and my!) product. Doing a fully priced hire then returning the fee for "advertising" gets you much good comment and lets you milk it for publicity. Also the beneficiary realises the true hire and services value.

[paulears]

Probably that I'm charging too little

 

is there a sensible rate? - I do alot of work in Chrsitian circles and "feel" as though I should be charitible as I am a Christian too, etc.

But then, I am a business too!

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

My company work often with Christian organsations. This does not mean cheap! It means value for money and integrity.

 

My experience is that they are not driven by money, which makes a nice change. They want to get things done and satisfy a particular aim. I've never been asked to provide a cheap price by these organisations. In fact, doing business with them is a pleasure. They tell you what they want, and once you have a good relationship wth them, they leave you to provide the best product you can. The progressive more evangelical churchs work hard for their money, and then don't mind spening it to get what they want.

 

The worst people, in my opinion are the small local organisers whose stock phrase is "how much? it is for charity you know" to which my retort usually is I'll mention that to the Nationwide next month when I pay my mortgage, perhaps they'll waive the payment as they know I've been working for free!

 

Charities, churches, hospitals etc are all good causes, and I support them wherever I can - usually by adding in extras that will help, but won't really cost money - you know, a couple of extra dimmer packs, another pile of parcans etc - plus I won't bother invoicing for a few extra hours from me - BUT they have to pay for my staff. Decent clients understand this perfectly. The ones that don't go somewhere else

[mac.calder]

Totaly agree with Paulears...

 

 

Now for my opinions ;-P~

 

I don't have much of my own stock - just the odd item I could not hire for use in a gig, or which I use often (ie a few radio mics, a small mixer, few par cans) and I hire most of the rest on a job by job basis - I am a student atm, I can't afford to go into business doing what I love, or invest in equiptment.

 

If I believe in a chartitable job, I charge for me, travel, hire and a bit on the top of hire - say 5% ontop of the hire charge for my sourcing costs. I have no qualms using my own kit with their shows. (BTW: I am not goddly, so I don't 'Do' church jobs as a charity). Schools are the main people I do charitable jobs for, or the local clubs.

 

If it is for some other gig - my kit is charged at a reasonable price (1% of item cost per day, 5% for a week), and a 10% added on to the total hire price for the rest. That money all goes towards buying new kit.

 

I have a couple of grand from doing it that way which will go towards an amp and speekers in the near future. Where I am I do not get many jobs, and I do not get long paying ones either (so I am a poverty strickened student doing engineering with 21 contact hours a week, 20 hours homework, 10 hours part time work, and the occasional job slipped in on the side plus my amdram work)... If I had the time, and was not studying, I would love to go and do it pro, but arround here it will not pay the bills... the moral - look arround you. If you buy this equiptment, will you be able to meet the repayments on a loan? Would the equiptment be worth the effort to throw it out by the time the loan ends? How often will it be used - can you get enough work for it?

 

With my hiring scheme, if it has a shelf life of only 5 years, and I only get one job every month, then my equiptment will make a loss. However if I have it hired out 50% of the time, I have more than replacement value (In fact I have 8 times the initial investment in profit).

 

Sit down and do the math.

[sam.henderson]

I think we have been here before regarding charity work... here, Here and Here!.

 

Sam

[Mr.Si]

I think we have been here before regarding charity work... here, Here and Here!.

 

Sam

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes we've had topics on Charity work before, but, my opening post was to do with how people buy equipment, not charity.

 

Yes the two can get closely related in some conversations, but I was just wondering how people bought stuff.

[rockinrob]

always get your customer to buy the gear off you payment upfront. I buy gear from leisuretech, which I then have to pay upfront - they arent the cheapest but the service / reliability is the best. make sure your vat registered - otherwise the customer might aswell buy the goods without you the middle man and there goes that nice profit.

 

you might loose the odd job doing it this way but its better than loosing a few grand and going under

 

you dont see the big club speakers / amps etc in a lot of the brochures etc but you'll generally find that most dealers who sell a certain product can supply just about any of their items. be aware though that sometimes when ordering a big system - it will take time as it may have to be built to order then shipped from the usa then quality controlled and so on - this could be as long as 1 month so make sure you have everything ready before that final week of madness before a club opens

[Pete McCrea]

I'm starting out with my own AV hire business- My first client- the one that spurred this on, is my church (Holy Trinity Cheltenham).

 

It is hard- I currently get good discounts with local suppliers. So I can then make a (small) profit on the monthly gig, that also covers the cost of the loan to buy the equipment for the gig. So theres a few £ left at the end of each month to play with.

 

Now other work is starting to come in, and the aim is to use the discount I get as the profit margin. i.e. the gig costs the client £1000 ex Vat. It costs me £750. Bingo, £250 of profit that is then turned into the company.

 

I'm extremely lucky, in that my employeer has given me the blessing to do this. The ydo Sound and Light, but not video. I also, as part of their buy into as directors have bought a warehouse and insurance, book keeping etc into the deal. So that eases the burden a lot. It also helps that I have full time employment, which means I do not need to earn a wage from Production:av yet and can plough the cash back in to invest the money. But hopefully in the not to distant future I can make the jump and go full time to allow me to grow the contacts and spend time networking to get the work.

 

It's hard being a Christian in this industry. It's hard doing business in a Godly manner, but at the end of the day, it's about being honest, having integrity and sticking to the basics. Making a profit and growing a business isn't as bad thing. Becoming greedy and money orrientated is. It's getting the balance right that is key.

 

It's also hard when there are christian (indeed any person) who will do a gig for next to nothing. There is no way of doing that gig if it costs you. I'm learning to stick to my pricing structure, and set discount levels for Churches etc. If they can get the job done for cheaper, then fair play, but I believe my prices to be correct, and I'm going to stick by that.

 

[/end of ramblings...]

[rockinrob]

yeah thats right what you say - it sounds like youre going about it the right way - slowly and carefully. there are a lot of bad guys out there and professional bullshitters, there are lots of good guys too - and over time you get to find out who you like to deal with on a reguaslr basis. as for price - ive found the people who I can trust and respect the most I can still charge a fair price because of providing a service which everyone is happy with- it might not be the full retail price but theres still enough to make a profit. sometimes you have to loose out a little in the short term to benefit in the long term. just make sure you never sell crap gear because the client wants a cheap deal - if they want something then they are going to have to pay for it no compromises and if they dont want it and buy cheaper elsewhere they'll soon be ringing you back beacause whatever it is they bought cheap has broken down and can you fix it?

 

it would be nice to cross over into the business full time for me too, only I live in cumbria and its fairly quiet place, so have to do electrical work aswell to pay the mortgage. once you get big though it can all get a bit messy. maybee im just small minded but I enjoy my quality of life the way it is

[Mr.Si]

the gig costs the client £1000 ex Vat. It costs me £750. Bingo, £250 of profit that is then turned into the company.

 

 

 

[/end of ramblings...]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Wow! if that's a real life situation then I'm seriously low cost!

 

I know events where the "Budget" for sound is less than £100! - others don't even have a budget to play with.

[Simonimus]

Si,

 

its a sad thing to say but if you are doing gigs where they will only just about give you £100 then you are never going to be in a position to buy that d&b rig you want!

 

churches / charitable organisations need to understand all the stuff that has been mentioned in the comment preceding mine - it costs money, we all have to put food on the table etc...

 

it's probably a good idea to show the organisers what it really costs to do sound for an event - not so that they can be amazed at how gracious you are to do a job for nearly nothing but so that they can be realistic about how much cash they need to get hold of to do an event properly, fund raise a bit harder before putting on the event of the century in the church hall. you can then of course do them a really good deal compared to other prices around and still get more than your petrol money or bus fare home.

 

worse case scenario is that they try and find someone else to do the job for £100 which will either mean they can't find anyone at that price or they get someone in who will do it for £100 and turn up with there dads old stereo and tandy's own brand mic.

They'll soon come running back!

 

one thing I would try in your situation is to get friendly with those people in the church who work in big companies or are in influential positions in their companies and offer your services - they will all do some kind of conference or something down the line that will need a bit of PA. that way you can get some good money in.

 

thats what I think anyways (IMHO)

 

Cheers mate,

Si

 

the gig costs the client £1000 ex Vat. It costs me £750. Bingo, £250 of profit that is then turned into the company.

 

 

 

[/end of ramblings...]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Wow! if that's a real life situation then I'm seriously low cost!

 

I know events where the "Budget" for sound is less than £100! - others don't even have a budget to play with.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[david.elsbury]

worse case scenario is that they try and find someone else to do the job for £100 which will either mean they can't find anyone at that price or they get someone in who will do it for £100 and turn up with there dads old stereo and tandy's own brand mic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hmmmm....

They'll soon come running back!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Or unfortunately, sometimes not. We called a client (now probably an ex-client) the other day who we used to hire a PA to once a month as a DJ rig for a YMCA youth event. We haven't heard from them for a couple of months, so gave them a follow-up call... It seems they have now brought their own PA. It probably doesn't have the headroom that ours does, doesn't sound as good as ours does... but it's loud enough, and the eq is probably so friendly that it smiles at you......

 

;)

David

[Simonimus]

I know what you mean I've experienced that before.

 

I used that as an illustration to say that if you pay £100 for a sound rig (and engineer) you run the risk of getting what you pay for.

or if you are like Mr.Si who has proper kit and (IMHO) knows what he is doing you should pay proper money for it/him

 

I guess one positive way of looking at those clients who decide to buy their own stuff - they may get to a point where they don't know what they are doing so want to pay you to come in and operate for them. easy money and no back breaking, shifting your kit about the place. (it could happen...)

 

Si,

worse case scenario is that they try and find someone else to do the job for £100 which will either mean they can't find anyone at that price or they get someone in who will do it for £100 and turn up with there dads old stereo and tandy's own brand mic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hmmmm....

They'll soon come running back!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Or unfortunately, sometimes not. We called a client (now probably an ex-client) the other day who we used to hire a PA to once a month as a DJ rig for a YMCA youth event. We haven't heard from them for a couple of months, so gave them a follow-up call... It seems they have now brought their own PA. It probably doesn't have the headroom that ours does, doesn't sound as good as ours does... but it's loud enough, and the eq is probably so friendly that it smiles at you......

 

;)

David

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Pete McCrea]

I was dropping of a monitor rig to a local night club we supply regularly, and he said that he'd gone on a mates recommendation for a monitor rig the night before.

 

They were £50 cheaper, and included an engineer (which he usually gets a mate to do for £30, but he has a good ear, and is a decent engineer...)

 

The flow of expletives that accompanied his description of the sound were unpublishable. He ended up apparently having to appologise to the bands etc due to the poor quality of the sound. He was glad to see us dropping or kit back in!

 

So he spends a bit more, but knows a) the kit will work and b) there's 3 people on mobiles who will come and sort it out if need be.

 

As for the example I gave.... it wasn't a real world gig I'm working on, but could well be. I'd say that I'd not generally, without good reason do a gig for less than about 15% cleared profit after costs of the job are taken into account. The costs of running the business will then come out of this. I'm only starting out, and as mentioned have lower overheads at the mo, but start as you mean to go on. There comes a point where you need to say no, because the cost of doing it is gonna leave you with very little for the effort.