Electro control systems

[Mylo]

Hi

This is a long shot, but I've been tasked with the dubious challenge of finding something that will control these lights (see pics). The control box (whatever that was) has been lost and the school needs another controller for the six lights. I've taken a picture of the electro box that is used for power and the cable that comes out of it assuming this goes into the control box.

Any ideas what I could be looking for or even a suitable replacement. I think this sytem is at least 15+ years old.

Thank you in advance.

 

 

Edited December 14, 2023 by Mylo

[Tomo]

There looks to be a "DMX In" 5-pin XLR port immediately below the custom DIN thing.

Very likely you can use any old DMX controller connected to that.

Though be aware that it's going to be getting difficult (and more importantly, expensive) to get replacement lamps for the fixtures, so it's worth starting to save up for some replacements in a few years.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Tomo

[themadhippy]

8 pins 6 channels screams good ole 0-10v

[sunray]

Why do people not put their location in their profile?

[Mylo]

Thanks for the replies.

Would any of these be suitable?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/186197833734

http://vikinglighting.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=329

https://ultralightsound.co.uk/product/6-channel-DMX-controller-lighting-desk/

https://www.jpleisure.co.uk/cat110_2.htm

[richardash1981]

The pulsar (you know that's a hire listing, I doubt you'll find a new one for sale) is an analogue controller should connect over the existing analogue cable with the DIN connector, but may need an adaptor.

The others are DMX digital controllers, and should connect to the 5-pin XLR connector which is visible, but you will need to run a new control cable up to the bar (and maybe a 3-pin to 5-pin adaptor). The Chauvet Dj Obey 10 is probably overly complicated for controlling 6 lights, I would stick with the SDC-6 type controller for a simple installation (loads of different re-badged versions of this available).

If you can say where in the UK you are then there may be someone close by who can help test / troubleshoot on the ground.

[sandall]

The ebay one is a bit complex for your needs. The Pulsar might need rewiring, as they used no-standard pin connections (on the other hand, so might your box). The Ultra & jpleisure ones would both be fine, provided that the 5-pin XLR DMX socket is actually connected to anything (you would need to borrow or hire a simple DMX desk to check). I would suggest looking for "6-channel analogue lighting desk". In the unlikely event you can't find any I have a couple of barely used Zero-88 ones knocking around somewhere. E2A: Richard can obviously type faster than me.

Edited December 14, 2023 by sandall

[kgallen]

Search on eBay for

Zero88 Alcora

Zero88 Elara

Zero88 Level

Alcora and Elara are by default DMX but might have analogue kits fitted.

eg

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/115981325722?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=lbTDg-56Tku&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=nsjPidUXSvu&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/276205469246?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=gVPRGinXT_y&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=nsjPidUXSvu&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/176040931340?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=F-xaUEw8TCG&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=nsjPidUXSvu&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/305220923859?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=mG1PSYMZRK2&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=nsjPidUXSvu&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
 

 

 

[ianknight]

12 hours ago, sunray said:

Why do people not put their location in their profile?

I think it's the "Owh no - we can't ask anyone for help because they'll charge the earth for just coming in the front door" syndrome?

@Mylo There's plenty of folks here on the Blue Room (and other socials) who would be happy to call in for a look & to give some advice for the cost of a cheery "Hello" & perhaps a cuppa but no one's going to offer unless they know where you are in the UK - you might even find someone very helpful & just around the corner,

I suspect also that your school is now 'panicking' because it's the school Christmas concert next week & after not bothering with lights last year - parent power is now looking for some 'atmosphere' this year. I've had 5 enquiries since this last week for desk repairs, replacement power supplies & so on but it's almost now too late 😞

[sunray]

4 hours ago, ianknight said:

I think it's the "Owh no - we can't ask anyone for help because they'll charge the earth for just coming in the front door" syndrome?

@Mylo There's plenty of folks here on the Blue Room (and other socials) who would be happy to call in for a look & to give some advice for the cost of a cheery "Hello" & perhaps a cuppa but no one's going to offer unless they know where you are in the UK - you might even find someone very helpful & just around the corner,

I suspect also that your school is now 'panicking' because it's the school Christmas concert next week & after not bothering with lights last year - parent power is now looking for some 'atmosphere' this year. I've had 5 enquiries since this last week for desk repairs, replacement power supplies & so on but it's almost now too late 😞

Indeed.

I'm in the lucky? situation of retirement and able to assist FOC or minimal expenses, I have now done 4 junior 'summer schools' with others, to get their students playing with knobs and assisted through to a show.

In the last 2 weeks I've helped 2 schools (one being replace the damaged 5 pin male in the wallbox and corresponding DMX cable female with 3 pin. Other; teaching 2 staff and 3 students how to use the sound desk and adding Dymo labels) and a church (loan of a twin preset light desk as theirs has succumbed to battery growth).

All within walking distance or 10min drive. Materials amounted to two XLRs from plentiful stock so no worth the effort raising an invoice.

 

Getting back to OP; that looks very much like an installation I know except 2 different fittings...

 

However I also know how difficult it is these days with vetting for schools and use of approved contractor lists etc.

[sunray]

Having just penned a reply, I give another.

I installed a school stage lighting system in 2007, in 2017 I quoted for and moved the entire system into their new building, however I'd stated I'd return for alterations or training if required. While preparing for Nativity 2021 (I think) the teacher concerned reckoned there was a problem, basically the lights were laid out on the desk in a different order to what she thought was correct. I simply swapped them round in the 24ch pack and while there I mentioned a DMX inlet at the position they used the control desk (sound and light). I'd included it in the quote and cabled for it but E&M reckoned it wasn't in the job. Releasing the front plate I found my cable, drilled the hole for XLR, terminated it and fitted stuffing gland and plug at dimmer pack, meaning they didn't have to have a 15m trailing cable.

Despite being several years later, rightly or wrongly, I didn't charge as all of this was within my original quote.

Edited December 15, 2023 by sunray

[ianknight]

16 hours ago, sunray said:

However I also know how difficult it is these days with vetting for schools and use of approved contractor lists etc.

I've seen this from both sides - I worked for 19 years with an install company & then a couple of years in a school (just before Covid happened) & it's bizarre to see how different schools handle it.

When I was installing - some schools wouldn't let us near without clearance whether they had someone to accompany us or not - some just gave us a cheery hello, asked us to sign in and left us to it. The school I worked at had an 'approved contractor list' which largely meant pre-approval but they also took DBS details from 'new faces' or had technicians accompanied if no clearance (and it's hard for small/solo contractors to get a clearance in their own name) - sometimes (I was site staff) we were told to leave them to it and get on with our own work!

I think my point is - if folks want to offer to 'volunteer' to help out a school then go ahead and do it - don't assume that they will want DBS (or conversely that they will accept your offer - some site managers & head teachers are picky) - they'll be glad of the help in most schools.

Don't push it though - don't get upset if they have someone accompany you, don't assume that because the equipment is 'top of the line' that they know how to use it - the drama teacher who left 2 years ago specified that & didn't show anyone how to use it before they left because...

Have the mindset of "I'm helping a neighbour..." and go from there - you'll make new friends most times & they might even ask you again and offer to pay - hopefully most schools will offer you a cuppa whilst you do your thing.

[kgallen]

@Mylo you still haven’t told us which county or town you’re in, or enhanced your profile to say. We’re not asking for your house address and bank details. Folk here are falling over themselves to help, but you’re not helping us…

[sunray]

7 hours ago, ianknight said:

I've seen this from both sides - I worked for 19 years with an install company & then a couple of years in a school (just before Covid happened) & it's bizarre to see how different schools handle it.

When I was installing - some schools wouldn't let us near without clearance whether they had someone to accompany us or not - some just gave us a cheery hello, asked us to sign in and left us to it. The school I worked at had an 'approved contractor list' which largely meant pre-approval but they also took DBS details from 'new faces' or had technicians accompanied if no clearance (and it's hard for small/solo contractors to get a clearance in their own name) - sometimes (I was site staff) we were told to leave them to it and get on with our own work!

I think my point is - if folks want to offer to 'volunteer' to help out a school then go ahead and do it - don't assume that they will want DBS (or conversely that they will accept your offer - some site managers & head teachers are picky) - they'll be glad of the help in most schools.

Don't push it though - don't get upset if they have someone accompany you, don't assume that because the equipment is 'top of the line' that they know how to use it - the drama teacher who left 2 years ago specified that & didn't show anyone how to use it before they left because...

Have the mindset of "I'm helping a neighbour..." and go from there - you'll make new friends most times & they might even ask you again and offer to pay - hopefully most schools will offer you a cuppa whilst you do your thing.

I'm not sure if most of that is aimed at me or a general broadcast.

I have worked in a fair number of schools, mostly as subby to a contractor so I agree some seem to say 'oh yes sign in here, the hall is that way' while others do a DBS check and escort visitors, I'm happy with any arrangement they put in place as long as it allows me to get on with my job.

As an example to this, I installed a stage lighting system in a junior school, They already had certified bars in place and didn't want those altered but the precursor to the junior8 and the 3 core maroon cotton/rubber twisted wiring and 2A sockets had to go... I installed conduit and 15A sockets above their bars, Anytronics 24ch pack and a 2412style desk. The guy I contracted to was a KCC approved contractor and as such his approval was sufficient to cover me. We went in for the initial survey escorted by the drama teacher and a deputy head, discussed the options and on the spot came up with a ball park price. Apparently we were the 4th to survey but the first to come up with proposals which avoided structural changes and also avoided the asbestos. First day of work either the drama teacher or the deputy head were in the hall, after that they didn't bother, caretaker assisted with access equipment and pulling cables into tubes (offered at survey to keep within a budget). Nice job, went well, I worked with their timetable.

A few months later a senior school less than 1/2 mile away had problems with faulty lighting; I had to be fully DBS checked before I was even allowed in the building, the physics teacher was the lighting expert and we had to work round his timetable and the hall timetable to survey: eight IWB's with flying leads/5A plugs to 6CH analogue dimmer packs distributed around the rig, each fed by a 15A MCB in the cubical at the back of the balcony, on the back wall was a pair of shallow 19" racks, each containing 5x 3U plates 4 contained 15 faders. That's: 2 pre-sets per channel, 2 submasters with several interlocked push buttons to select their function, master. 5th plate again a 2 pre-sets but this time controlling the submasters previously mentioned and more selection switches. All of that was facing away from the stage and basically formed a 48 channel 2 preset manual desk however the 2 pre-sets didn't have to be fully linked.

On the desk facing the stage was a panel containing Quadrant faders, about a dozen which could remotely control both 5th panels. In addition to that was a patch panel of banana plugs, all 48ch of control had 2 o/p sockets, all dimmers had 1 I/p socket. and a much shorter row of 'off' sockets to park any dimmer channels not required.

In use it required a team to pre-set each scene so quick scene changes were very tricky.

This was a bespoke system by a company who had gone out of business leaving no technical documentation behind and I'm sure that anyone reading this is scratching their head and saying something like 'oh dear me I wonder how this works' just like I did. The physics teacher was all over it, demonstrating what wasn't working, and lots wasn't so losing me very quickly.

It reached a point where I asked about budget as I was predicting major long winded reverse engineering and fault finding hours. I phoned the deputy head from the other school and asked If I could bring someone in to see their installation and passed my phone over to arrange a visit a bit later in the day. As it happened it was while the hall was in use rehearsing for the end of year show and were able to see how a junior student was setting and saving scenes.

On the walk back I proposed stripping the existing system, fitting 2 Anytronics 24ch packs and wiring direct in the existing trunking using 'junction boxes' to the IWB tails and a 4824 desk. As the dimmer packs were considered to be architectural the final solution was to remove the electronics and cable to the sockets. Some 10 years later I returned to add some undimmed circuits and DMX lines, they had a PC running the system by then.

Something fairly similar happened with 2 other schools except a teacher was describing the new system at some meeting and 2nd school viewed before calling us, I was told the words used on the phone where a very good impersonation of 'want that one in my school' and they got an exact copy as the building was the same.

Edited December 16, 2023 by sunray
Sorry for the long post, that was intended to be an 'I agree, I've seen all variations of checking too'.

[ianknight]

@sunray - it was intended for all the folks reading this thread to hopefully inspire more folks to reach out to help schools & to suggest that they shouldn't presume what the answer will be when they offer to help. 😄