Three Quotes

[Illuminatio]

Hi guys; we are looking to change a college lighting rig from tungsten to LED (finally!).  I need to obtain three quotes.  Can anyone recommend companies with experience of doing this?  My line manager wants quotes from manufacturers rather than distributors, but I suspect that may not be practicable.

[J Pearce]

Not many manufacturers will sell direct, and rightly so - manufacturers are good at manufacturing, distributors are good at distributing. Consider also that a distributor will sell the appropriate accessories to make your lights work, rigging/cabling/data distribution, and can quote you with a package not just some lights in cardboard boxes.

In the UK the big obvious ones for lighting would be Stage Electrics, AC-ET, and Whitelight, but there are numerous other companies out there worth talking to.

[Illuminatio]

Thank you; that's rather what I thought.  Stage Electrics and AC seemed the obvious choices and I have good contacts with both; I've always found Whitelight a bit pricey!

[Simon Lewis]

Be thankful if your college is happy to use the 'three quotes' approach... It's not unusual for FE and HE institutions to insist that larger projects go to competitive tender. You can end up not being able to closely specify the items wanted and having to buy what you don't want from the firm you'd rather not deal with... 🙂 

Edited March 17, 2022 by Simon Lewis

[dje]

1 hour ago, Illuminatio said:

Thank you; that's rather what I thought.  Stage Electrics and AC seemed the obvious choices and I have good contacts with both; I've always found Whitelight a bit pricey!

When it comes to Whitelight and being pricey... I just want to defend them a bit and say it depends. Some of those big companies (I mean, WL are probably supplying the vast majority of all West End and Touring theatre) are just so busy that taking on small sales jobs can be more destructive than profitable, so they have to charge a premium to make it worth the hours. Whereas a company like AC is much better setup to deal with sales jobs of all sizes.

In terms of competitive suppliers I always say Adlib... I think they're very good on price and after-sales support.

[Robin D]

4 minutes ago, dje said:

In terms of competitive suppliers I always say Adlib... I think they're very good on price and after-sales support.

Ditto with Viking Lighting especially when the whole package is reviewed rather than just specific devices 

[dje]

11 minutes ago, Simon Lewis said:

Be thankful if your college is happy to use the 'three quotes' approach... It's not unusual for FE and HE institutions to insist that larger projects go to competitive tender. You can end up not being able to closely specify the items wanted and having to buy what you don't want from the firm you'd rather not deal with... 🙂 

I completely agree but the three quotes system can be a total waste of peoples time as well. You know what you want, you know the best company to get it from, you know why they're the best company to get it from... the deal is done in your mind but you have to get 2 more quotes anyway and the waters will invariably be muddied when one of those quotes comes back either (a) cheaper by a few quid or (b) much cheaper because they offer you completely different equipment and somehow manage to ring somebody higher up your organisation, bypassing you completely, and convince them that the inferior product they're offering is actually the same thing with a different badge... causing a kerfuffle whilst you push a square wheel uphill attempting to debunk the myth.

[dje]

3 minutes ago, Robin D said:

Ditto with Viking Lighting especially when the whole package is reviewed rather than just specific devices 

Yeah I mean to be fair there are many companies... if I were to be totally impartial I'd say to do it through a rental/sales supplier - and as local a company as feasible - just because there'll tend to be more scope to have somebody come to assist you as part of the deal.

Edited March 17, 2022 by dje

[TomHoward]

If one supplier quote of 3 is higher it'll make your other two look more affordable.... don't need 3 just the same otherwise you wouldn't be able to make a case for which to pick
I am a big fan of Viking but would also throw Batmink in for straight box-supplying distribution, if they stock what you're after they can be really competitive.

[Simon Lewis]

1 hour ago, dje said:

I completely agree but the three quotes system can be a total waste of peoples time as well. You know what you want, you know the best company to get it from, you know why they're the best company to get it from... the deal is done in your mind but you have to get 2 more quotes anyway and the waters will invariably be muddied when one of those quotes comes back either (a) cheaper by a few quid or (b) much cheaper because they offer you completely different equipment and somehow manage to ring somebody higher up your organisation, bypassing you completely, and convince them that the inferior product they're offering is actually the same thing with a different badge... causing a kerfuffle whilst you push a square wheel uphill attempting to debunk the myth.

Yes - I've been in that situation too... but have to say that the constraints placed by my old employer's tendering process were far less helpful than their three quotes system. The purchasing department couldn't accept that you might know more about the market, the suppliers and the product than they did, and tended to assume that high end production equipment could be negotiated and bought in the same way as a contract for 5 years worth of toilet paper... 🙂 

[J Pearce]

The other fun to be had is when there is only one supplier of something - like a QLab license. Trying to persuade admin that there really is only one route, and that alternatives are not appropriate can be fun.

In a previous employment my local trusted supplier did on occasion buy things in to resell back to me. It cost the company more, but the finance department were happy because they didn't have to add another supplier. Madness!

[Simon Lewis]

The other issue that caused problems was the immovable insistence that all IT related items must be purchased by, and through the IT department.
IT related got defined as any type of software, any type of computing hardware and anything that happened to have an RJ45 socket, "because that must be for networking"...

In the end it was better to keep quiet about the presence of such interfaces than to argue whether IT should be trying to buy electronics labs microcontroller systems, guitar effects pedal boards or turntable systems for KEMAR mannequins...

[kerry davies]

"Can I tender for this project?

"Certainly but you need to be an approved supplier."

"How do I become an approved supplier?"

"You need a track record of successful tender delivery."

This was a genuine conversation with a university for whom I had delivered several major events as a consultant. They ended up paying twice as much for a marquee that fell over.

[bruce]

4 hours ago, dje said:

I completely agree but the three quotes system can be a total waste of peoples time as well. You know what you want, you know the best company to get it from, you know why they're the best company to get it from... the deal is done in your mind but you have to get 2 more quotes anyway

It may be a pain, but it's the law - if procuring equipment using public money, you've got to demonstrate that you are doing it all above-board. (Disclaimer: last year, I signed off orders worth around 5 million pounds of public money)

 

It's often about transparency. I'm spending public money. I know the kit I want. I think I know the best company to get it from. But you have to be able to demonstrate due diligence - imagine the press headlines "Council employee orders £500,000 of equipment from his brother's company..." 

My advice: if purchasing, look for a framework agreement - a nationally negotiated agreement with clear pricing, and where someone else has done the due diligence. I'm not aware of one for theatre lighting, but I'd be very surprised if there's not something under Crown Commercial. There are plenty of frameworks for AV supplies, and they may have specialist theatre contractors - at one time Northern Light was on the AV supply framework for scottish public sector.

Or see if your area has a DPS (Dynamic Purchasing System) setup - that allows smaller more specialist companies to bid.

And at the end of the day, if you have to do a tender, it's not the end of the world. Clearly state your functional and quality requirements, and ensure that when scoring the "quality" score is more important - or at least as important - as the "cost". You never know - your preconceived idea of the "right" system may not be the best solution, and someone could propose something better/cheaper...

Speak to your organisation's procurement people. Use coffee and chocolate biscuits - it makes the process much more productive.

 

 

 

 

[dje]

I mean I get it, the mentality. But like, it just seems to go wrong a lot. 6 years ago I was working at a well-known hire company and was asked by a former lecturer if I could design and provide the lighting and rigging installation for a new venue at my old university. I put together a well-suited package at a good price. The university insisted it had to be done through their tendering process from their approved suppliers, of which my company wasn't one. A well known installer of stage lighting equipment took the gig on and charged them more money for facilities panels than I'd quoted for the full install. By the time they'd finished buying facilities panels and custom steelwork (which wasn't necessary), there was so little left in the budget that they got 4 Chauvet Lustr copies and 4 very disco-looking LED strobes... I'm sure all those custom facilities panels would be really useful if they actually had any equipment to plug into them. As it is the students play in the dark. But the purchasing department are still convinced that what they've got is top of the range because the supplier was a leading supplier of stage lighting equipment and they said it was a good install.

It seems funny to me that the formal process is there to stop the spending being abused because in many cases it seems to do the exact opposite... but's it's OK as long as the company doing the abusing have a track record of doing it to other people too.

Edited March 17, 2022 by dje