Best way to semi-permanently loom cables together

[timsabre]

The church where I help with sound recently started meeting in a school. We have a full (but variable) band and setup/takedown time is limited so to save lots of mucking about with cables we have made cable looms to go to each instrument in the band containing XLR(s), Cat5 for P16 monitoring, mains power for pedals etc. These all plug into a sidestage rack with an S16 digital stagebox and some mains distro.

Initially we have taped the cables together with PVC tape but this is gradually coming off. I don't really like cable ties for this purpose as they tend to be a bit jaggy on the hands. Does anyone know of a magic product for keeping cables together, or maybe we just need a good brand of PVC tape that will stay on? Large heatshrink is one idea but it's quite a bit of work. The cable looms are between 5-15m long.

[J Pearce]

Better PVC tape? Or go for self amalgamating tape. Or put it all in expandable sleeving. Definitely not cable ties, ever!

I'm not joking re better PVC tape btw - I've handled plenty of looms that are several years old and are held together with PVC tape. Cutting the end with scissors rather than stretch cutting helps too. I'd usually use LeMark or Advance AT7 tape.

You could also take the terminations off one end, slide on loads of rings of heatshrink, then space and shrink these before replacing the terminations. That gives a very neat and easy to handle finish.

[IRW]

14 minutes ago, J Pearce said:

Cutting the end with scissors rather than stretch cutting helps too.

^This. One of those little gel-cutting cards they used to give out at PLASA works very well.

[johnb]

In our church we have a similar setup with looms for each member of the band which contain the Cat6 for the personal monitoring solution, as well as the appropriate number of audio lines.  These are then all held together using the expandable sleeving.

We find this works very well for keeping everything need together while being very quick to run out.  The downsides we've seen are really the same with any loom around not being as easy to coil and slightly more tricky to hide the surplus.

For standardisation we have two types of looms - the standard instrumentalist with Cat6 for personal monitoring and 1 XLR for the instrument, and then the leader loom which has two additional XLR cables for vocal and also MD feed (same mic fed by local shotbox switch).

[p.k.roberts]

In this situation, I've gone for expandable braided sleeving, with the ends secured either with decent tape or cable ties (you need one or both to stop it fraying), but I would agree with johnb that this does require a bit more care when coiling; either 'figure of eight' or 'over and under' will help with that though.

[boatman]

I always used spiral cable wrap for this. Some self amalgamating tape around the ends stops it unwrapping.

https://cpc.farnell.com/concordia-technologies/sw20mmblk10m/spiral-wrap-20mm-black-10m/dp/CB20507

[sandall]

Totally with boatman on this - it comes in several widths & diameters. If a loom needs to be very flexible I use short lengths of spiral-wrap, spaced a few inches apart.

[timsabre]

Thanks for replies. We will consider the best option, I hadn't thought of the braided sleeving or spiral wrap. I assume braided sleeving is described by its minimum size, i.e. 10mm sleeving expands to 30mm or whatever?

It's interesting to know that someone else has come up with the same loom solution as us. We seem to have ended up with 3 types of loom, acoustic instruments (XLR+Cat5), electric instruments (XLR+Cat5+Mains), keyboards (4x XLR+Cat5+Mains).

[J Pearce]

The other easy (but expensive) answer is to get some double cat5 and mains single jacketed cable, then use XLR-Cat5 boxes for the XLR lines. Makes for a very clean setup.

XLR/Mains/Cat5(6) is a fairly common combination, used all over the industry for various things, but mirroring your use is very common in orchestra pits (often with a BNC for video, or using 1 pair of a CAT5 with a balun, using the other 3 pairs for audio lines).

Not sure I'd want to use spiral wrap for something that's in and out weekly, but if it works for you 🙂

[dje]

I have to be honest I have toured large / heavy cable looms on international shows going to hot/cold/wet/etc places held together with PVC tape and they have not come apart through frequent packing into boxes and unpacking onto trusses, so I am going to say here that it is probably your brand of tape, technique, or spacing.

In the UK I would use Le Mark, 50mm width PVC: https://www.lemark.co.uk/electricians-tapes/pvc-electrical-insulation-tape/#tab-id-3

I would use 3 wraps (some say 2), a metre apart.

The other two things to note are, (1) as somebody said, cut it with scissors or a knife rather than stretch/snap, this will stop the end peeling up; and (2) make sure that when you're looming the cables, you have somebody pulling them tight or tie the end off to a solid object. You need to be able to pull them tight and not twist around each other. This one catches a lot of people out, looms done loose get messy really fast.

Finally, when you need to de-loom them, use a seatbelt cutter to reduce the scope of slashing the cables.

 

[sunray]

54 minutes ago, J Pearce said:

The other easy (but expensive) answer is to get some double cat5 and mains single jacketed cable, then use XLR-Cat5 boxes for the XLR lines. Makes for a very clean setup.

XLR/Mains/Cat5(6) is a fairly common combination, used all over the industry for various things, but mirroring your use is very common in orchestra pits (often with a BNC for video, or using 1 pair of a CAT5 with a balun, using the other 3 pairs for audio lines).

Not sure I'd want to use spiral wrap for something that's in and out weekly, but if it works for you 🙂

I'm glad I read all of the replies before answering this one. Over the years I have dealt with ALL of the above ideas. In my experience the 2 options which do not work are; plastic tape & spiral wrap, both fall apart and the spiral wrap walks along the cable. Hellermann sleeves or self amalgamating tape and I'll include tie wraps (as long as they are cut completely flush) will work for a while but gradually the cables seem to turn within the loops and kink (think about how an incorrectly wound 3 core flex goes), short lengths of heatshrink used this way will work but they too will age quickly.

Any form of sticky tape is just that... sticky and collects the dirt which will come off on you.

I have found the only method I'll now use for this sort of situation is a continuous sleeve, either something soft and flexible similar to heatshrink before shrunk (but certainly not heatshrink) or braided sheath (I've always known it referred to as donkey or rats tail) but ensure it's big enough otherwise the finished loom can end up being stiff.

Obviousely the ideal is a hybrid cable as JP says, either shotgun or oversheathed which tends to be very expensive.

 

It is also possible to make the cables into a self supporting rope with a lapping at each end to stop it fraying

Edited January 31, 2022 by sunray
Tie wraps may also create a fault liability eventually

[J Pearce]

While not wishing to diminish your experience - taped looms really are the industry standard on many many many touring shows. Even on daily move tours taped looms will last for months. On weekly/monthly moves looms last almost indefinitely. Stickiness is only an issue if poor quality tape is used.

Go to any getout in any music venue or theatre and crew will be filling boxes full of taped looms, all with no stickiness to endure. It really is the industry standard.

Tie wraps want to slash you palms even if cut flush - the square lump sticks out and is vicious - a basic risk assessment rules out their use on any loom that is regularly handled. They also often get overtightened, which for CAT5/6 is likely to cause issues (and indeed most reputable install companies will not cable tie CAT6 or CAT7 to cable trays as it can cause issues).

Edited January 31, 2022 by J Pearce

[sunray]

1 hour ago, J Pearce said:

While not wishing to diminish your experience - taped looms really are the industry standard on many many many touring shows. Even on daily move tours taped looms will last for months. On weekly/monthly moves looms last almost indefinitely. Stickiness is only an issue if poor quality tape is used.

Go to any getout in any music venue or theatre and crew will be filling boxes full of taped looms, all with no stickiness to endure. It really is the industry standard.

Tie wraps want to slash you palms even if cut flush - the square lump sticks out and is vicious - a basic risk assessment rules out their use on any loom that is regularly handled. They also often get overtightened, which for CAT5/6 is likely to cause issues (and indeed most reputable install companies will not cable tie CAT6 or CAT7 to cable trays as it can cause issues).

The vast majority of my 'loom construction experience' is for AV installations where the users are often the non technical staff where cables tend to get wrapped incorrectly. It is a very different situation to large touring shows.

It's funny that LeMark products were referred to earlier as that is the only tape one of my employers buys from 'gaffertape.com', my experience of it is pretty much no different to the cheap 50p rolls from the wholesalers. I'd love to know which tapes you use which don't go sticky.

My large touring show experience is restricted to the Rochester Castle shows and one of the things I notice is the constant repairing of the failed tape lapping as the looms are replaced in the tanks and those looms I have handled are always sticky and I routinly wash my contaminated cables after ripout.

Re ties, if cut correctly should present no safety issue however I failed to make a similar comment that they do cause injury and I won't use them for the job for that reason, additionally they get caught up and ripped along the cable. However I've encountered a number of bands and discos (small local types rather than the shows your talking about) whose stage looms are solely constructed with tiewraps and cause no problems. I hinted at the damage they cause to the cable in the edit.

Edited January 31, 2022 by sunray
With all that said, yes I'm fully aware of the different methods empployed and how they work in different situations, my initial reply was directed to the specific question in OP and in my opinion a continuous sleeve is correct for the situation.

[dosxuk]

Braided sleeving for permanent looms - you can reduce the fraying issue by folding it back in on itself so the loose end is tucked inside the braid by several inches (this also gives you the advantage you can pull the braid back a bit if you need a bit more separation of cables on the odd occasion. Always use the size above what you think would be best to increase flexibility. 

For temporary (even long term temporary), I'd always tape it. As others have said, make sure you're using decent tape and cutting it, otherwise it will peel off at the slightest provocation. I've known taped looms that have had over 10 years of regular use to still be in good condition. The only times stickiness has been an issue is where people have used the 50p rolls of tape that don't stick, or made such a bad job of cutting it that it's sliding around from day one.

Cable ties are an absolute no go, I've been known to cut them up on sight, not only do they slice your hands open, the sort of people who think they're a good idea often do them up so tight that the cable is crushed. 

[sunray]

22 minutes ago, dosxuk said:

For temporary (even long term temporary), I'd always tape it. As others have said, make sure you're using decent tape and cutting it, otherwise it will peel off at the slightest provocation. I've known taped looms that have had over 10 years of regular use to still be in good condition. The only times stickiness has been an issue is where people have used the 50p rolls of tape that don't stick, or made such a bad job of cutting it that it's sliding around from day one.

 

which tape please.