Radio mic purchase advice.

[tonytech]

The school I work at regularly hires in equipment for its reasonably good productions. One large extravagansa and two or three smaller shows per year.

As part of its development program the powers that be are considering the purchase of a dozen radio mic belt packs. I've used Sennheiser G4s with some success and we already have two handhelds and two belt packs in another dept..

Aside form the cost and security (its a good school, but students and staff do break stuff and loose it too!!) I'm concerned that the radio spectrum is an ever changing place.

We have a fairly large site with over 100 yards to nearest neighbors and roads so hopefully interference should be limited.

I've looked at OFCOM, and read a few posts on here to try and seethe future.

 

I' concerned that after spending almost £10,000 in 5 years time we will not be able to use OUR mics due to the shrinking spectrum.

 

Can I ask the Blue Collective Wisdom for its view.

Ta.

Tony

[natjones]

We've been very impressed with Sennheiser's D1 mics at our venue over the last year. They use digital rather than radio frequencies, and the transmitter and receiver are paired. Unless there are a lot of walls in the way between, they're pretty damn smooth. Some reviews mentioned latency when there are a lot of wifi routers nearby, but it's so minor that it wouldn't be noticeable for your applications. The belt packs are also nice and light compared to the older radio mics. We went straight to Sennheiser, and they do pretty tasty education discounts, I think.

[J Pearce]

I worked for a school that did multiple shows a year, plus wet/production hires of the halls/theatre.

 

We sat down to do a proper business analysis and it worked out much cheaper to own a basic kit (4 receivers, with 4 handhelds and 4 packs), then supplement as needed from hires.

 

We’d use 4 channels almost weekly but only needed more than that once a year - simply wasn’t worth spending the cash for them to take up storage space we didn’t have.

[kgallen]

...own a basic kit (4 receivers, with 4 handhelds and 4 packs), then supplement as needed from hires.

 

...and you can get 4 channels into "ch70" license free (with some decent kit like Senny EW G4) which will cover most ad-hoc use which means not having the OFCOM license fee pop up yearly. Hiring in kit for shared spectrum should then come in with the required license. Intermod calcs required but the separation between ch70 and ch38 I think means many combinations won't give trouble.

Edited December 20, 2019 by kgallen

[DavePallant]

The problem with channel 70 is it is legally the only area that anyone who wants to operate a microphone or instrument link can use without a licence. That means that it is the go to frequency band for pubs and clubs or anyone else putting on a performance. Depending on how far your theatre is from anywhere else gear might be used you might be alright but given you need a licence to use channel 38 and that should rule a lot of people and their equipment out then I would go there. I think there has been enough stirring up of frequency bands recently for channel 38 to be relatively safe for a while now.

 

Also I would say that you dont necessarily have to go to the G4 level to get really good quality. I have 12 channels of Sennheiser XSW2 on channel 38 and they are really good, particularly by comparison with a couple of cheaper units (single antenna) I have had to use on channel 70 recently. However you only get to use 12 channels on channel 38 with XSW2 with them compared to greater numbers on the same channel with G4. If you want to buy some and rent later you can buy 4 and rent G4 or similar later you just to work around the four frequencies in channel 38 you are already using. I cannot talk about Sennheiser XSW which are only internal antennas but the XSW2 are not too much more expensive and can be used with external antenna amplifers and RF splitters later if you decide to do that.

As for Digital on 2.4GHz you might be able to get your 4 channels working but once an audience (and cast who are already on the wifi network) full of mobile phones all scanning around on 2.4GHz, some of which might also have permission to be on the school network arrive things might get worse. A good school wifi system should use every possible frequency band with multiple access points on the same and different frequencies all close to each other in adjacent rooms. Not a great environment for 2.4GHz audio. Outdoor use for film and tv crews well away from building wifi systems is much better suited for 2.4GHz.

Dave

 

[cedd]

I run 8 channels of Line6 2.4GHz and they've been pretty flawless from an RF point of view. Antenna placement close to the stage and using the characteristics of the antennas to put a null over the audience is the recipe to success. I've had 1 or 2 temporary drop outs in maybe 4 or 5 years of using them - but it's less than I've had with UHF and tends to have had a cause I found later (Like LX putting their wifi hotspot on top of your rack that was stashed under the stage so didn't get seen).

 

I swear by my Trantec S5's if you're looking for licenced UHF. Aside from the battery doors (which are easily replaced - find my S5 user group on facebook if you want links to the 3d printer files for replacement doors) they're ruggedly built and 1AA for 10 hours life is a big cost saving over the years. The new ones appear to have antenna loop through's so you don't need antenna distribution straight away. They may have even beefed up the battery door in the new model.

 

 

 

[paulears]

The thing with buying wireless for schools is that it is indeed a lot of money for occasional use, and bands do change. Twice since channel 69 was first talked about being sold off. They get broken and of course replacement mics will eat up your budgets when the money for the mics is long forgotten. If you use the cheaper disposable Chinese mics then the extra money on the G4s really is a bit lop-sided.

 

If you ever lay your hands on some original first gen Sennheiser you'll find the audio quality is very, very close. Ch 38 is pretty full nowadays and who knows how long it will remain trouble free? The antenna distribution and racking for the Sennheiser also eats into the budget. Worse still of course is the complexity and technical standards needed from the operator with ten mics on the go. Ten is pushing the spectrum you have and unless you have a very good sound op, ten means feedback hell. Student operation is pretty much out, and you're making a big jump to a whole new standard of operation. Do you really need to go that far?

[d_korman]

I run 8 channels of Line6 2.4GHz and they've been pretty flawless from an RF point of view. Antenna placement close to the stage and using the characteristics of the antennas to put a null over the audience is the recipe to success. I've had 1 or 2 temporary drop outs in maybe 4 or 5 years of using them - but it's less than I've had with UHF and tends to have had a cause I found later (Like LX putting their wifi hotspot on top of your rack that was stashed under the stage so didn't get seen).

 

I swear by my Trantec S5's if you're looking for licenced UHF. Aside from the battery doors (which are easily replaced - find my S5 user group on facebook if you want links to the 3d printer files for replacement doors) they're ruggedly built and 1AA for 10 hours life is a big cost saving over the years. The new ones appear to have antenna loop through's so you don't need antenna distribution straight away. They may have even beefed up the battery door in the new model.

 

Line 6 are great so long as you are not using the 2.4GHz band for anything else, but their reliability comes from them stomping all over other services in that band, including wi-fi and some wireless houselight systems - which is why I can't use them in my local theatre, as they cause the houselights to fade up and down at random!

Edited December 21, 2019 by d_korman

[tonytech]

Thanks people. some good advice and interesting stuff to research over my long Christmas break.Of course my long Christmas break will be mostly filled with cable sorting and repairs and all the invisible stuff that the teching staff believe the stage fairy / gnome / elf does.

Happy Christmas folks.T

 

[DavePallant]

The thing with buying wireless for schools is that it is indeed a lot of money for occasional use, and bands do change. Twice since channel 69 was first talked about being sold off. They get broken and of course replacement mics will eat up your budgets when the money for the mics is long forgotten. If you use the cheaper disposable Chinese mics then the extra money on the G4s really is a bit lop-sided.

 

If you ever lay your hands on some original first gen Sennheiser you'll find the audio quality is very, very close. Ch 38 is pretty full nowadays and who knows how long it will remain trouble free? The antenna distribution and racking for the Sennheiser also eats into the budget. Worse still of course is the complexity and technical standards needed from the operator with ten mics on the go. Ten is pushing the spectrum you have and unless you have a very good sound op, ten means feedback hell. Student operation is pretty much out, and you're making a big jump to a whole new standard of operation. Do you really need to go that far?

 

Have to agree with this about number of channels. I did a panto with a local theatre group on Saturday with 14 wireless mics and it was a difficult job. You need to mark the script really carefully to get the mutes and unmutes as tight as possible (assuming they follow the script!) and then be riding the faders continuously as the numbers on stage build up to ensure getting a decent level without ringing. Put that together with triggering cues and life gets busy!

Dave

 

[ninjadingle]

A different option many people forget is a site specific licence. It is around £150 a year, but gives you a TV channel that you'll probably only be sharing with TV, which is fine if you work with Ofcom to choose carefully for the area you're in and you're only using them indoors. We have mics on channel 28, 29 and 31 in Bristol city centre and very rarely get any issues (around 150 mics in different buildings). It is expensive for a few mics used occasionally, but for us (many mics in use daily) it's cost effective.

[DavePallant]

 

Line 6 are great so long as you are not using the 2.4GHz band for anything else, but their reliability comes from them stomping all over other services in that band, including wi-fi and some wireless houselight systems - which is why I can't use them in my local theatre, as they cause the houselights to fade up and down at random!

 

Have to agree that if the original poster is in a high school then the wifi should be good enough to wipe out the 2.4GHz spectrum for anything other than data. The school will need a wifi system to deal with carts of 30 laptops that can be setup and used anywhere so coverage should be very good. That would give me too many worries!

[tomo2607]

I second the line 6 units if your environment allows. We have 8 ways for our school venue and they have been almost bullet proof. Very reliable for a show setting, but also “cheap” (in comparison) enough to be replaced if needed.

 

The Xd-v75 series is fairly versatile too, as they can be provided in handheld or belt pack configurations. They sound pretty good too for the price point. We have also adapted some cheap cpc capsules to work with the packs for a “throw away” option for less reliable students.

 

If you rely on any other 2.4ghz system, the line 6 will wipe them out though... so it would depend on your venue.

 

We were able to hire a set of 10 in for a show before our initial purchase to test the functionality before purchase.

[tomo2607]

Depending on the rf settings of the line 6, the mics are likely to wipe out the network environment rather than the other way around. We have 3 access points tied to the main network in the venue space and the only time we had issues was due to the receivers being located right next to one of them. Once the receivers were moved (now 5 meters away from the access point) we haven’t had any trouble. For info, we have mainly UniFi access points and switching. Edited January 1, 2020 by tomo2607