Green Ginger 12 channel dimmer identification

[sram]

Hello all

 

I've just registered for this forum after reading many of the threads that I found thanks to Google. I work at a school and have been asked to take a look at their very old lighting system which has been left unloved by previous technicians. It was all serviced by White Light back in 2012, but I think things have deteriorated since then due to misuse and abuse.

I am a novice when it comes to lighting, but my background is in computer networking and system administration, so I am not completely clueless when it comes to technical things.

 

They have a very old non-DMX Zero88 Level 12, 12 channel controller with one out of two "fade time" pots broken and one of the "flash" switches missing. This feeds back to a stack of three Green Ginger dimmers. The connection between the two is via three feeds of 6-core & shield cable with a 6-pin Bleecon at each end. One of the cables was damaged and had been severed. After a lot of digging and hunting online I was able to find some new old stock 6-pin Bleecons and I extended the severed cable with some equivalent that I sourced from RS.

 

The Zero88 is powered via the dimmer but two of the dimmer banks do not appear to work. I am trying to find out if this is something to do with the links between the desk and dimmer or the dimmer itself. Everything is built-in to a custom made cupboard which has been there since the 80's and it's had layer upon layer of paint applied to it and so it doesn't even open fully anymore. This makes access a real pain and I'm trying to troubleshoot in the least destructive way as possible before I have to start hacking into stuff.

 

I am having trouble identifying the exact model of Green Ginger dimmer. If I could identify the model then that may help me to track down a manual or at least ask some better questions of the more experienced people on here! All I can tell you given the limited access is that it appears to be a bank of three dimmers which present as one unit but perhaps are single modular units? Each one has four fuses labelled A, B, C and D and a red neon light. On two of the units the red neon does not light. I am not sure if it's the neon that's blown or if indeed those modules are faulty. An odd thing is that even though there are three banks of four channels, there are only two power feeds (each with a blue 16 amp, I believe, commando plug) going to it. I thought there would be three. The other identifying feature that the dimmer setup has is that the three Bleecon connectors are located together on the lower left end face of the unit. This confuses me slightly because this layout implies that the three units are not in fact modular but form one system. I have tried looking on here and via Google image search at various models of Green Ginger dimmer, but I can't find any that have this kind of controller socket layout or that have the four fuses and neon in the same place as the units I have.

 

I know that the desk channels work in a basic fashion because if I plug the one working Bleecon feed into the desk's '1-4', '5-8' or '9-12' outputs, control of the four lights on that particular dimmer are controllable by the desk's respective faders.

 

I do realise that I am not helping myself here, but I am providing as much detail as I currently have given the access limitation. I may be able to get a mirror or phone into the cabinet and take some pictures, but I won't be able to do this until I'm next onsite on Wednesday and Thursday.

 

Thanks for reading and for any advice you might be able to offer.

[indyld]

It sounds like a rack made of three 4 channel dimmers. The Bleecon control inputs are probably on a custom panel that the go into the rear of the packs or similar.

 

If you don't have an additional local control on the GG dimmers, then it's hard to verify the pack or control connection but I'd suspect the power to the dimmer itself if you think the neons are power on and not "fuse blown" indicators. The Micropack had a power on red neon I recall.

 

I'd trace what is feeding the blue outlets and follow it back to the distribution board. Something might be turned off. Its not impossible that the 3 packs are wired back to two connectors if the system was originally for a different setup. But also worth trying to work out what's going on.

Edited September 1, 2019 by indyld

[nuttytechy]

Good of Green Ginger Dimmers. I used to work with them many years ago when I was a school Tech. Totally idiot proof for the students ** laughs out loud **

 

You are saying its 4 channel dimmers going into a level 12 so I reckon you have the micropack series 2. If I can remember pins 1-4 are channels, Pin 5 is desk supply and pin 6 is ground I think.

 

As you say that 2 out of the 3 are not working and the cable was severed then it would make sense for 2 not to work as it would be sharing A pin and the other pin would act as the power supply for the desk.

 

As its been a long time since I've dealt with green ginger gear... Actually any analogue equipment, I hope others can help ya.

[sandall]

They will be 4-channel dimmer packs. Power for the desk is normally from any (or all) of the packs. I've got some GG paperwork (& a dimmer pack) here - I'll try to look it out in the morning.

[Junior8]

First of all I think the Level 12 has been modified. If I recall aright they came from the factory with one 8 pin locking din per 6 channels. Pins 1-6 channels 7 +20v 8 common return. I can think of one particular firm which supplied a lot of schools with Green Ginger/Zero 88 combinations at that time but usually using the GG standard 6 channel 12 way pack. As the three dimmer packs are fed by 2 16 amp industrial types I wonder if the two which must be paired are the two which don't work. Sorry I don't see any alternative here to disconnecting the 240v, prising the cupboard off the wall and simply taking everything apart and starting from scratch. I suspect the 6 pin leads might be 1-4 channels 5 +20v 6 common return. I agree Micropack 2. Micropack 1 did not have channel fuses on front panel if I remember correctly. Edited September 2, 2019 by Junior8

[Edward- Z88]

First of all I think the Level 12 has been modified. If I recall aright they came from the factory with one 8 pin locking din per 6 channels. Pins 1-6 channels 7 +20v 8 common return. I can think of one particular firm which supplied a lot of schools with Green Ginger/Zero 88 combinations at that time but usually using the GG standard 6 channel 12 way pack. As the three dimmer packs are fed by 2 16 amp industrial types I wonder if the two which must be paired are the two which don't work. Sorry I don't see any alternative here to disconnecting the 240v, prising the cupboard off the wall and simply taking everything apart and starting from scratch. I suspect the 6 pin leads might be 1-4 channels 5 +20v 6 common return. I agree Micropack 2. Micropack 1 did not have channel fuses on front panel if I remember correctly.

 

Yes the Level 12 must have been modified to suit the Green Ginger. All analogue equipment as standard shipped with the much more common 8 pin DIN sockets, for 6 channels per cable, plus desk supply from dimmers plus common.

 

The Level 12 therefore had a pair of outputs, 1-6 and 7-12.

 

Edward

Edited September 2, 2019 by Edward- Z88

[sram]

Very interesting, thank you all who have responded. I'm back in later this week and so will get the best pics I can. In the meantime, here is one that was in my photo library showing the rear of the Level 12:

 

My link

Edited September 2, 2019 by sram

[sandall]

Just to confirm - presumably you have the WallPACK" units, with just the fuses & neon on the front panels. (the "Micropack" units have 5A or 15A sockets on the front). The neon indicates mains supply is present, so it looks as if you have lost power to 2 of the packs.

 

It sounds as if your Level-12 desk has been bodged to replace the original 2x 8-pin sockets with 3x 6-pin. While you are in the cupboard it might be worth checking the 4 fuses on each pack. Assuming the packs are Wallpack 2.0 or 2.5 (10A per channel) the fuses should be 7 Amp (BS1362), but with a reputable brand-name (not something Chinese from the local DIY store - GG recommended sourcing from RS Components) - this is because d0mestic BS1362 fuses are designed to fail at approx. 150% load, i.e. 10A for a 7A fuse.

 

E2A: If your supply really is 16A the dimmers may have been de-rated to 5A, & only have 3A fuses.

 

I've got a manual for these dimmers somewhere, but so far it's proving very elusive.

 

 

Edited September 2, 2019 by sandall

[nuttytechy]

First of all I think the Level 12 has been modified. If I recall aright they came from the factory with one 8 pin locking din per 6 channels. Pins 1-6 channels 7 +20v 8 common return. I can think of one particular firm which supplied a lot of schools with Green Ginger/Zero 88 combinations at that time but usually using the GG standard 6 channel 12 way pack. As the three dimmer packs are fed by 2 16 amp industrial types I wonder if the two which must be paired are the two which don't work. Sorry I don't see any alternative here to disconnecting the 240v, prising the cupboard off the wall and simply taking everything apart and starting from scratch. I suspect the 6 pin leads might be 1-4 channels 5 +20v 6 common return. I agree Micropack 2. Micropack 1 did not have channel fuses on front panel if I remember correctly.

 

I remember dealing with a combo who is no longer about who did the Green Ginger and Zero 88 combos. We did use them a lot because they were local-ish to us in the south.

 

It was also the same company who did a Zero 88 level 12 and anytronics 4 channel in my local working mens club ** laughs out loud **

[indyld]

Assuming the packs are Wallpack 2.0 or 2.5 (10A per channel) the fuses should be 7 Amp (BS1362), but with a reputable brand-name (not something Chinese from the local DIY store - GG recommended sourcing from RS Components) - this is because d0mestic BS1362 fuses are designed to fail at approx. 150% load, i.e. 10A for a 7A fuse.

 

Fuses and MCBs aren't designed to fail at their sticker rating and I've never heard of a day to day application where the end user adjusts their selection for the disconnection curve. If 10A BS1362 is advised, then that's what the user selects. Is this a bit of info from the GG user manual?

Edited September 3, 2019 by indyld

[Junior8]

 

I remember dealing with a combo who is no longer about who did the Green Ginger and Zero 88 combos. We did use them a lot because they were local-ish to us in the south.

 

It was also the same company who did a Zero 88 level 12 and anytronics 4 channel in my local working mens club ** laughs out loud **

 

I last bought any GG dimmers off John Coe it must be around the time they and was it Genlyte were sold to Eurolight who I think John moved to - or he may have been on his own at the time. I think he was for a while. I specified a Sirius 24 and a Level 12 but all these years later I have no recollection of whether GG ever made any controls of their own. Did they?

 

 

 

[indyld]

I specified a Sirius 24 and a Level 12 but all these years later I have no recollection of whether GG ever made any controls of their own. Did they?

 

Yes. I can recall desks too. Similar distinctive livery and hobby box look and feel of the age.

[sandall]

Is this a bit of info from the GG user manual?

Yes it is, though the reference to 3A fuses for dimmers with 5A sockets comes from the Micropack flyer, & was added because of the possibility of 2 packs being fed from a 16A supply & a well-meaning soul fusing them appropriately. Don't forget these were really "budget" packs, dating from the 1970s (in the days when unless your house had been built or rewired since the 1960s it used all-rewirable fuses), at a time when MCBs were still an expensive luxury. The packs wouldn't pass EMC regulations either.

 

I have no recollection of whether GG ever made any controls of their own. Did they?

They certainly made 20, 12 & 8 channel desks (don't know about 4 or 16). Quite large & flimsy - presumably why people used the built-like-a-battleship Zero88 desks. Like the dimmers they were let down by the appalling Bleecons.

 

 

[sram]

I finally had a chance to break open the cupboard. It was more work than I had anticipated and I had to get drastic with the tools, but I got in eventually. Here are some pics of the setup:

 

Pics

 

 

With access improved, I was able to check each of the commando power sockets and swap the two dimmer supplies over. The fault followed the power socket and so I eventually traced this to a tripped circuit breaker. That was great as it now means that there are eight out of 12 channels working. Even with the breaker in the on position, the neon on the dimmer is still unlit, so presumably that's failed.

All that's left now is the mystery of the third dimmer which does not have its own power supply, nor is it labelled as you can see in the pics. I would expect it to have a sticker on it, as the other two do, with 'dimmers 9-12'.

I was able to take my 6-pin din fly leads that go from the wall plate to the desk and plug directly into the dimmers in order to eliminate the cabling that runs through the trunking to the back of the hall. This yielded no difference and so I am reasonably confident that the cabling from dimmers to wall plate and then from wall plate to desk is all ok.

I will check the four fuses in the dimmer that doesn't seem to be working, but I'm guessing it's fairly unlikely that all four and the neon would have failed.

 

I may have to remove the covers and look at how the bottom dimmer links in and obtains its power.

 

Any advice appreciated and thanks for everything so far!

[sandall]

My guess, & it's purely a guess, is that the dimmer-packs & patch-panel were installed (by some sort of lighting outfit) in the expectation of being fed from 3 C17 outlets (installed by an electrician), but for some reason only 2 were put in. If the bottom pack's power was looped from the middle one I would expect it to be labelled as "9 - 12". You may find a plug for the bottom pack buried somewhere.