Sound Tech wanted Huddersfield to fix PA issues in a Church

[JSalisbury]

Hi,I am looking for a sound techician who could help fix / train up a church PA system in Huddersfield town center. They have had a new system installeed but there are clearly a number of issues with it that I could PM you about.

Thanks

 

[paulears]

I think you need to let us have a few details. Are we talking about a bodged up done on t cheap install, or a professionally installed expensive one? I'm assuming the cheap option as if it's a proper install the supplier would have provided commissioning and at least basic training.

 

Trouble is church installs are getting so complex nowadays that they require trained ops to run them. Sadly, they are never one button and they work products, so .......

 

What does it do you don't want to happen? And

What does it not do you need it to do? And of course

 

What is it? Makes and models.

 

We have loads of members who can help, and some could be local to you and then you could have a chat, but we do need some help. Crackles, hums, feedback, sound quality, radio mic issues, programming, etc etc. What kind of issues? Plus, of course budgets and things.

[timsabre]

done on t cheap install,

I am not sure if this was intentional yorkshire lingo for an 'uddersfield venue or phone keyboard problems but it made me laugh. Everything in Yorkshire is done on t' cheap.

 

[JSalisbury]

Hi,

 

I have been told they have paid 10,000 pounds for the install, which covered new amp, speakers, mixer desk, microphones and so on. The sound is generally unclear and I suspect some of the speakers need an amp input delay line. They have also had issues with painful howl round. I am not directly involved with the church but would like to put them in touch with someone who is local and can provide proper advice.

 

Thanks

 

 

 

[emsgeorge]

Hi,

 

I have been told they have paid 10,000 pounds for the install, which covered new amp, speakers, mixer desk, microphones and so on. The sound is generally unclear and I suspect some of the speakers need an amp input delay line. They have also had issues with painful howl round. I am not directly involved with the church but would like to put them in touch with someone who is local and can provide proper advice.

 

Thanks

 

 

The issue with 'putting someone in touch' is that professionals, will charge for their advice / consultancy. If you put detail on here, you might get some free advice from experts - and those who don't really have a clue will immediately be corrected by those who do if its on here....

[timsabre]

Wigwam are not so far away and very experienced in church sound.

https://www.sseaudiogroup.com/wigwam/home

 

You don't say what has been done so far but on a 10K job the installation company should be doing plenty of hand-holding to get the system working as desired.

 

[paulears]

Yes - I thought that. The people clearly should have had a training session thrown in with the commissioning. Trouble is, sometimes you end up with highly clever and complex systems and keen, but green people working them. Feedback is a good example of the level 1 issues - normally caused by poor operating. One I visited had the entire system set up so that you pushed the faders ALL to the fullest position and that's where they 'lived'. No concept that all those open mics would be a major issue.

 

It seems wrong to have to ask on a forum. Me? I'd ask what the supplier is doing? I assume that if it's misbehaving you'd be on the phone to them first step?

[GR1]

The first point of contact should be to the installation company. Part of the £10k spend should have been the supplier assessing the level of competence of the users and installing kit appropriate to that level plus giving guidance and tuition. The church should not look to be spending more money if they have already paid for a package.

A bit more information would help.

 

[willjam39]

I find it interesting you mention the level of ops in a church. One of our locals has titan mobile running their lighting which for 6 generics and 6 led back lighting floods seems overkill but it was so they could program set scenes and put them on labelled buttons on screen so anyone could get the service running.

[jacethebase]

Some church installations are crazy.

 

I am not really a church person, I went to my friends daughters christening in our local church 100 cap ish. Feedback was so bad he asked me to step in.

I simply turned of the PA, vicar said “ohh that’s better” and carried on!

 

My first call for this would be the person who installed the system. If they didn’t have enough money in the gig to install the system to a high standard and ring out the Mic lines leaving clean clear audio, they should have let someone else do it!

 

With all the tools at disposal in this modern world their is no excuse.

 

I do feel a lot of installs I walk in to these days where there has been massive feedback issues is down to cost saving. £5 CPC lapel or headset mics as they don’t want to buy DPA. No graphics to insert, cheap digital preamps etc etc.

 

The same local church I mentioned above are having a new audio install as we speak. We were not even asked to quote,

[paulears]

Oddly, I doubt very much that the CPC mics vs DPAs make any appreciable difference to the issues involved in these installations. The real problem is much more simple. Nobody really did any of the design stages properly. Technology has made it possible to do so much, but it is also expected to be magic.

 

Churches rarely respond well to the traditional ringing out approach where the object is to maximise volume before feedback. great for some forms of production, where the volume is critical, and there is a very good engineer sitting there fingers on faders, waiting to detect those obvious too some indications the words is about to end. Church - as a descriptor means nothing. Are we talking about a 17th century parish church who simply wants the Christening to be audible to everyone, or are we talking about a church in a warehouses, with huge PA, screens cameras and cleverness? the little parish church lacks one essential feature - a human capable of looking after the kit. I'm avoiding one of these at the moment. They want me to specify and spend their money. I don't want to do it because I went to my grandson's christening there and all the things I'd already explained to them in an earlier visit had been ignored by everyone. The constant drop out of the radio mics (and frankly it's a small church and they really don't need radios) could have been helped by my advise, but no the TX pack is still in the vicars back pocket facing the receivers in the cupboard with door closed, 60 ft away. The lapel mic is still clipped on to his chest at breast bone height because the cable isn't long enough to go up the inside with it in the back pocket. He walks past the half a dozen Richer Sound speakers screwed to the wooden pews, near the aisle. three feedback squeals as he passes, every time. In this example, it's people wanting the system to work as soon as turned on, and working by magic. Clip a mic on anywhere and it should work. They knobbled me again in Tesco - I explained I was really busy at the moment, so sorry I couldn't help.

 

The other end of the scale has digital this, digital that, cat 5 everywhere and expensive systems dangling from ceilings. The band are all miked up and have in-ears, yet it still works badly. The expensive line array was tuned by the installers, but overwritten when the local expert re-aligned everything to add in a minuscule delay to the further speakers because he'd been told on the net their feedback issues were due to the lack of time alignment. they sent the mixer file and I could not imagine why all the EQs visibly looked instantly wrong. The idea that any mic would need everything below 300Hz scooped out, and everything above 3.5K shelved away, with an extra peak at 2K apple;ied makes me wonder. Looking at all the inputs they all had amazingly odd EQ, but there was a graphic on the output and that had another mountain range. No wonder it was unstable, but their sound 'team' had all helped mess it up.

 

The problems seem to be people based, not equipment based. The trouble with churches, especially well funded ones, is that technology is handled by a team of varying ability, but randomly allocated pips on their shoulders. A good op, a single pair of speakers could make services sound great. Somebody mixing from an inexperienced perspective on clever kit is doomed. Trouble is, they assume that their expensive kit is the problem. It rarely is.

 

You only have to view some of the tutorials on youtube (mainly from the US) of total idiots explaining how to do things on their clever kit that so clearly they don't understand.

[jacethebase]

My findings have been somewhat different to yours in terms of using quality microphones.

Having said that, I am more from a touring / live / corporate background as supposed to church. My church shows have mainly been larger cathedral one of shows.

[Stuart91]

One problem that churches have is that typically a purchasing decision is made by a committee, none of whom have any of the knowledge required. It's often an "apples vs oranges" decision where one bidder is proposing the cheapest 100v line columns and someone else is pitching a concert-level PA. I suspect that more often than not they will seek three quotes and go for the middle-priced option with their fingers crossed.

 

Consultancy is a common model in the USA, not so much over here although it is gaining ground. One church brought a consultant in to help decide between their two preferred bidders, they basically couldn't work out why we were coming in £50k under the competition, who had specified l'Acoustic and Christie thoughout. There's obviously a place for that level of kit, the consultant helped them work out whether it was worth the extra spend for them.

 

Of course, politics comes into play too. Budget could get cut so that funds are available for someone else's pet project. One church I know spent massively on sound kit because their organist recommended it. They were terrified that if they didn't keep him happy, he would leave and they would struggle to recruit a replacement.

[Junior8]

Get the supplier back. Remember the equipment was sold under the sale of goods act.It must therefore be fit for purpose. Edited July 29, 2019 by Junior8

[James]

I have spent a lot of time working with churches and sound systems, and in so many cases sound systems fail due to a unacheivable expectations. So often we are faced with.

 

Why doesn't it work, all I want is one button to switch it on..

 

And the best automixing system in the world will fail when presented with almost random microphone placement and highly variable input volumes ave uncooperative attitudes.

 

- member of clergy with strong voice who clips lavalier to top of cassock collar so it is brushing hard against adams apple

 

- nervous lay reader who clips to mid chest and backs off every time they hear their own voice.

 

Etc. Etc. Etc.

 

Ann's the general attitude of.. it should just work when we switch it on... And.... We can't consider training up a volunteer or paying someone to look after this because it should just work....

 

I did do some sessions in one diocees as part of Minster training programme that were enlightening for those attending but attitudes can be so entrenched that nothing seems to change long term

 

Rant over

 

James.