How fast can I drop a hemp in

[blinddog]

I’m really interested in all the responses from folks who have actual hands on experience. Thanks for the creative responses!

[kitlane]

I think you can get a long way to understanding the problem with a thought experiment.

 

Unlike a counterweight set where you can pull down on a rope to fly something in, gravity is the only force acting on a hemp set to fly it in. Everything else is about the flyman slowing it down.

 

What is the fastest way you can fly in a hemp set? Let go of it and let gravity do all of the work. Can you make it any faster? I don't think so.

 

But we don't want to just let go, we just want it to be fast. Normally, you would let in the set by paying out the ropes hand-over-hand. How fast can that be done? Try it now. You don't need a rope. Just mime the hand movements in front of yourself.....as quickly as you possibly can. Do you feel like an idiot? You certainly look like onehttp://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif Hopefully, you can instinctively tell at what speed it just got ridiculous and uncontrollable. Remember, if you miss grabbing the rope because you were going too fast then you have just dropped the set. My conclusion is that you can't use this method to be particularly fast.

 

That leaves letting gravity do its thing but retarding the motion. For example, wear a pair of gloves and let the ropes slip through your hands. It is difficult to modulate the pressure of your grip accurately and consistently. You want it to be quick so you will be at the edge of retardation. A fraction less pressure and the set will be free falling. Maybe going under a cleat is better.

 

My conclusion is that this is harder to achieve than it sounds. Certainly to do it consistently and with minimal risk of a free falling set seems difficult.

 

I can imagine a number of mechanical devices that might work but I suspect they would be OTT. For example, the decelerator used by stunt performers for high falls.

[ontoprigger]

What is the fastest way you can fly in a hemp set? Let go of it and let gravity do all of the work. Can you make it any faster? I don't think so.

 

But we don't want to just let go, we just want it to be fast. Normally, you would let in the set by paying out the ropes hand-over-hand. How fast can that be done? Try it now. You don't need a rope. Just mime the hand movements in front of yourself.....as quickly as you possibly can. Do you feel like an idiot? You certainly look like onehttp://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif Hopefully, you can instinctively tell at what speed it just got ridiculous and uncontrollable. Remember, if you miss grabbing the rope because you were going too fast then you have just dropped the set. My conclusion is that you can't use this method to be particularly fast.

 

That leaves letting gravity do its thing but retarding the motion. For example, wear a pair of gloves and let the ropes slip through your hands. It is difficult to modulate the pressure of your grip accurately and consistently. You want it to be quick so you will be at the edge of retardation. A fraction less pressure and the set will be free falling. Maybe going under a cleat is better.

 

My conclusion is that this is harder to achieve than it sounds. Certainly to do it consistently and with minimal risk of a free falling set seems difficult.

 

 

 

I worked in a hemp house 20-30 years ago, we got fast at letting cloths in by 'running them around the cleat' probably as fast as you could go with them, just had to keep fingers away from the cleat rail when the last of the free rope came up and the bottom cleat took the weight

[Jivemaster]

There are pics and narrative on the forum about the time when someone ripped and burned two hands and tore a shoulder making an attempt to stop a runaway hemp line. It's not the fall that hurts it's the stop at the bottom! Gravity gives you the maximum acceleration wind drag and mechanical drag limit the peak speed achievable.

 

There are mentions of dropping a chandelier in from prior discussions of a certain top rated show, whether from people with permission to disclose... , whether from people with full engineering knowledge... Search them out and see what you can learn. However having something descend even apparently above people is not to be taken lightly, you need to prove that it will be safe every time

[blinddog]

So you don’t know

 

What is the fastest way you can fly in a hemp set? Let go of it and let gravity do all of the work. Can you make it any faster? I don't think so.

 

But we don't want to just let go, we just want it to be fast. Normally, you would let in the set by paying out the ropes hand-over-hand. How fast can that be done? Try it now. You don't need a rope. Just mime the hand movements in front of yourself.....as quickly as you possibly can. Do you feel like an idiot? You certainly look like onehttp://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif Hopefully, you can instinctively tell at what speed it just got ridiculous and uncontrollable. Remember, if you miss grabbing the rope because you were going too fast then you have just dropped the set. My conclusion is that you can't use this method to be particularly fast.

 

That leaves letting gravity do its thing but retarding the motion. For example, wear a pair of gloves and let the ropes slip through your hands. It is difficult to modulate the pressure of your grip accurately and consistently. You want it to be quick so you will be at the edge of retardation. A fraction less pressure and the set will be free falling. Maybe going under a cleat is better.

 

My conclusion is that this is harder to achieve than it sounds. Certainly to do it consistently and with minimal risk of a free falling set seems difficult.

 

 

 

I worked in a hemp house 20-30 years ago, we got fast at letting cloths in by 'running them around the cleat' probably as fast as you could go with them, just had to keep fingers away from the cleat rail when the last of the free rope came up and the bottom cleat took the weight

 

Interesting! Thank you!

What is the fastest way you can fly in a hemp set? Let go of it and let gravity do all of the work. Can you make it any faster? I don't think so.

 

But we don't want to just let go, we just want it to be fast. Normally, you would let in the set by paying out the ropes hand-over-hand. How fast can that be done? Try it now. You don't need a rope. Just mime the hand movements in front of yourself.....as quickly as you possibly can. Do you feel like an idiot? You certainly look like onehttp://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif Hopefully, you can instinctively tell at what speed it just got ridiculous and uncontrollable. Remember, if you miss grabbing the rope because you were going too fast then you have just dropped the set. My conclusion is that you can't use this method to be particularly fast.

 

That leaves letting gravity do its thing but retarding the motion. For example, wear a pair of gloves and let the ropes slip through your hands. It is difficult to modulate the pressure of your grip accurately and consistently. You want it to be quick so you will be at the edge of retardation. A fraction less pressure and the set will be free falling. Maybe going under a cleat is better.

 

My conclusion is that this is harder to achieve than it sounds. Certainly to do it consistently and with minimal risk of a free falling set seems difficult.

 

 

 

I worked in a hemp house 20-30 years ago, we got fast at letting cloths in by 'running them around the cleat' probably as fast as you could go with them, just had to keep fingers away from the cleat rail when the last of the free rope came up and the bottom cleat took the weight

[kitlane]

So you don't know

 

What is the fastest way you can fly in a hemp set? Let go of it and let gravity do all of the work. Can you make it any faster? I don't think so.

 

But we don't want to just let go, we just want it to be fast. Normally, you would let in the set by paying out the ropes hand-over-hand. How fast can that be done? Try it now. You don't need a rope. Just mime the hand movements in front of yourself.....as quickly as you possibly can. Do you feel like an idiot? You certainly look like onehttp://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif Hopefully, you can instinctively tell at what speed it just got ridiculous and uncontrollable. Remember, if you miss grabbing the rope because you were going too fast then you have just dropped the set. My conclusion is that you can't use this method to be particularly fast.

 

That leaves letting gravity do its thing but retarding the motion. For example, wear a pair of gloves and let the ropes slip through your hands. It is difficult to modulate the pressure of your grip accurately and consistently. You want it to be quick so you will be at the edge of retardation. A fraction less pressure and the set will be free falling. Maybe going under a cleat is better.

 

My conclusion is that this is harder to achieve than it sounds. Certainly to do it consistently and with minimal risk of a free falling set seems difficult.

 

 

 

I worked in a hemp house 20-30 years ago, we got fast at letting cloths in by 'running them around the cleat' probably as fast as you could go with them, just had to keep fingers away from the cleat rail when the last of the free rope came up and the bottom cleat took the weight

 

 

 

 

Actually, I know only too well. Admittedly, over the past 35 years I have done more counterweight flying than hemp. But I started in a hemp house and have plenty of experience in hemp flying. I could regale you with stories of all the exciting fly cues and rigging I have been involved with over the years, but really, who cares? If you can't think through the problem accounting for some basic physics then you shouldn't be the one planning the solution. Other people's anecdotes are not a good basis for an engineering solution.

 

You are asking the wrong question. 'How fast can I drop a hemp in?' As fast as gravity will allow. This is the easy bit. The hard part is how to do it safely and how to stop it in the right place. We need more information to give you meaningful help with that.

[paulears]

Moderation: This has started to to go off the ropes rather quickly - sorry, but I couldn't resist.

 

This is one of the classic Blue Room problems. A question gets asked. The wise (and perhaps previously injured) have strong views that it's not something that should be done without all manner of proper planning - and we had a topic recently about somebody being seriously injured when there had been proper planning.

 

History shows that when faced with questions like this, the common answer is simply don't do it. Sometimes, the process can be done safely, with the appropriate knowledge and safety systems in place. Sadly, it's more common for the question to have been asked to generate supporting opinion for something already planned. Clearly, when this happens, supporting views are considered beneficial and positive, and those with the more realistic 'holistic' viewpoint dismissed.

 

This appears to be happening here, and now it's starting to get snappy - and I have removed a post that would encourage more of a split.

 

We have not shut the topic down yet - but please note that the mods are watching it and should it move in the wrong direction, we'll shut it down promptly. The old hands know this is how we work, and this is simply a request to maintain a bit of pleasantness - please. Paul.

[kitlane]

is from the 2003 Derby Playhouse production of 'Dracula'. Apologies for the video quality in the long shot; we were using a steam powered camera back then.

 

The show had a theme of mirrors, reflections, light, and shadow. At this moment in the play, as Dracula is finally defeated, we wanted a huge shard of broken mirror to plummet from the sky (from a height of about 6.5 meters in fact). It was a piece of mirror acrylic mounted on MDF so it was pretty heavy. It was around 2m tall, maybe a bit more.

 

We tested a number of methods of achieving the effect but the one that looked far better than the others was to simply drop it. It was on a simple hemp line and the operator just let go on cue. There was a piece of sacrificial floor with a box of sand beneath it so the mirror really did plunge through the stage each night, just like dropping a sharp knife vertically into a piece of wood. We reinforced the tip of the shard with some steel strap.

 

That was the fun bit. The really important part was developing the safety protocols to ensure we didn't break anyone in the process.

 

The scene was very carefully planned. It looks chaotic and there are multiple things happening including a counterweight trap cue, some fight choreography with a sword and a blood knife, and a huge piece of scenery being moved (which you don't see in this clip). But it was very carefully choreographed. We ran a number of tests first. We dry teched without the actors, then stepped through the sequence with them in working light, and finally ran the full sequence as many times as necessary for everyone to be completely comfortable and for me, the crew and the actors to be confident that we had a safe method.

 

The blocking kept the actors and crew a safe distance from the drop zone. There were multiple spotters who could see from different angles that the area was clear for the cue.

 

The DSM was positioned FOH with a clear line of sight. She also had multiple CCTV monitors with infra-red cameras including an overhead view, with safe zones marked on the screen. The DSM was given complete authority to not call the cue and was assured that any decision to not call it would be fully supported. (After all, it was a nice effect but the show would continue just fine without it). The flyman, who could see the stage pretty well from the fly floor, also had our full support to not complete the cue if he had any doubts.

 

We knew that in the highly unlikely event that the mirror missed its target it would still puncture the stage floor and remain upright (and not bounce off it). We also had an arrest line on it so it wouldn't fall if it did fail to puncture the floor.

 

There were probably other aspects of the safety protocol that we implemented but I have forgotten in the intervening years. There was certainly a detailed written Risk Assessment and Method Statement. The flyman inspected the rigging and the structural integrity of the mirror before every show and this was recorded on a checklist.

 

So back to the original question. Other than using a winch that pulls something down very quickly, I think this clip shows the fastest that a hemp can be dropped - just let if fall under gravity. The velocity at impact would have been about 11.3 m/s or 40.7km/h or 25.3 mph. It took a little over a second to fall.

[andy_s]

One positive advantage hemp flying often has over counterweight flying is that because the hemp lines are secured to cleats or belaying pins on a flyrail overlooking the stage*, the operator has a better view than someone operating a counterweight set, which is fixed to the side wall of the stage, meaning the natural position of the operator is facing away from the stage, to obtain any view, the operator has to twist, and ofter on a deep flyfloor even when twisting away, cannot see down to the stage floor.

 

The fact that the operator has 'eyes on' the flightpath can form part of your risk management plan, as Kit mentions in his post above.

 

I too have done shows involving "fast" hemp flying, including one with an actor intentionally below the load - he was supposed to be crushed beneath a one-ton weight. this was a bit like Kit's shard of glass, i.e. it was dropped onto an in-dead permanently set on the lower cleat. I say "permanently" - it was in fact checked and retied regularly to guard against possible rope stretch. Needless to say, the dead was tied such that the load stopped short of actually hitting the actor, who was not in fact directly below the falling object, which did not actually weigh one ton! The effect relied on shock, a sort of forced perspective and (mostly) the reaction of the actor involved.

 

As to the actual speed, I'm afraid I couldn't begin to give a meaningful figure in terms of feet per second. Suffice it to say that the falling weight effect was convincing.

 

*NB, this is not always the case - I have been in theatres (particularly ones without a full height fly tower), where the cleats are fixed to the side wall.

[indyld]

Slower than Kit's gravity drop but faster (and safer) than a conventional cleat slip or hand over hand would be similar technique as used by various ariel acts to get airborne and back down e.g several sets of hands walking/running a haul line to a fixed in-dead.

 

This requires space for the run and is more of a shallow angled move than a conventional theatre flying setup would generally allow. Can be fairly fast.

[kitlane]

The OP has been quiet recently so is maybe not around anymore, but this is an interesting article on contingency planning.