Strand minim23 spts

[sunray]

I have acquired 6 Minim 23's and rigging them for a play next month I'm finding them to be incredibly dim.

 

Minim PC's at twice the distance totally swamp them.

 

one currently has a 300w lamp but everything else has 500W.

 

I'm convinced Patt23's are brighter, hope to compare later next week.

 

Is this normal or is my grey matter turning a darker shade?

[Don Allen]

The Minim Spot datasheet on Theatrecrafts website is actually a fresnel ! The Minim 23 datasheet states 18 degrees beam width, 23000 peak candelas, look at data sheet for different lamp candela. The Patt 23 Mk2 datasheet gives a beam angle of 20 degrees but a table of Illumination so you need to compare the two methods for the distance you are using them at. The Patt 23 datasheet 1979 has the same Performance chart style as the Minim 23 data sheet but uses different lamps.

 

The lamp you are using is one variable, you need to use the same lamp for a true comparison and withing reasoable hours match.

 

If you look at the internal view of the Patt 23 Mk 2 you can see how much more scattered light is reflected out of the lens, so should be brighter due to the internal design. Both have a 90mm plano convex lens.

 

Have you got the lamp on a peak or flat focus ?

[Junior8]

Years ago now I think it was the ABTT did a 500W Profile 'shoot out' with some interesting results. I think I have a copy but can't find it. It would be 1990-1994 and was published in their journal. You might find a comparison there. As I recall when the Minim range was introduced I was underwhelmed,

[timsabre]

They are pretty rubbish. Do check the lamp as they can take m38/m40 lamps which makes them even dimmer, but the lamps last for ages.

[vinntec]

The Patt 23s might well have T17 lamps or been converted for T18/T26. With their superior optics they are very bright even with 500W versions of these. Years ago I got four Patt 123s off the scrapheap to make up the rig for Oklahoma and after refurbishment and fitting T17 lamps they were much brighter than the newer Preludes which had 650W lamps, so had to be dimmed to match! The reflectors of the Patt 23 and Patt123 are indestructible which I doubt is the case with the Minim 23 - have you checked the reflector and cleaned both this and the optics?

 

Also check precisely what lamps are fitted and make sure they are the right ones as I think they are an odd height. The datasheet lists RSE/18 500W, M/40 500W, CP/82 500W, M/38 300W, and CP/81 300W. If they are fitted with the more common T18 500W or T26/27 650W lamps, these might be the wrong height. You will need to do your own homework on this.

[Trunker]

I don't think my Minim 23 Profiles have ever left the shelf since I somehow acquired them years 10 years ago. Very poor output. The Minim PC fixtures however, still serve me well in certain LX Designs. The PCs were a great light for the size and a great effect when spotted right down.

[sunray]

Hi All and thanks for the replies.

I've hung 3 fittings for this event, first had a M38 300W which, at 7metres was too weak to pull the skin off a rice pudding but it may have just illuminated it, changing it to a T25 made a dramatic difference.

Other 2 have T25 at 3metres & M40 500W at 7metres so really can't make a comparison.

 

Before hanging these I stripped, blew  out the crud, flattened the shutter blades, thoroughly cleaned the lens and reflector and replaced the pvc flex.

The intention was to retire the Patt23's and I'm hoping to do a bit of a shootout during the derig next week but realistically I'm not holding my breath.

 

Embarrassingly even a microspot308 (M38 500W) gives a bigger brighter light, but not very focusable.

[andy_s]

If I remember rightly, (no guarantee of this!) these fixtures were aimed at shop window displays, hence the low wattage producing less heat. A 7m throw would have been well beyond their capabilities. 3m would have been stretching them! Uprating the lamps doesn't really solve the crap optics. As someone else has said, a Pat 23 had better reflector, better lens etc.

 

I think you have proved the "older doesn't mean worser" premise....

 

PS, I think the reason they got "updated" by Strand for the theatre market was to try and compete with the CCT minuette range, which for all its many faults was a much better light producer.

 

PPS, I should have said beyond their "design intentions", not"capabilities...

[Junior8]

I think the last post re CCT has it right. CCT were making inroads in 1973-5

[sunray]

Mmm.I think I was under the impression these were introduced as a direct replacement for the Patt23.

 

That said I had almost nothing to do with stage lighting between 72 when I left school and 95 when I did a couple of years of nightclub sound and lighting and since then I have gained little bits of experience here and there.

 

The lens feels like the Patt23 lens but so far I have not had the two together to do a like for like comparison and the shutter arrangement looks fairly similar so that only leaves the lamp and reflector, the reflector is of course vastly dissimilar.

 

The publicity literature I have seen seems to indicate it is a 'proper' stage light and I was fully expecting to be disposing of the 4 Patt23's I have as the minim is so much easier to handle.

 

The crazy thing is the Minim PC I have found to be very usable and knocks the spots off Patt 45's.

 

Anyway thanks again for the info and any more tips are welcome.

[vinntec]

Saying it knocks the spots off a Patt 45 which doesn't even have a reflector is not much of an accolade ;-)

[andy_s]

It may well have been marketed as a pat 23 replacement, but I don't think it was designed as that. I can't remember which came first, prelude or minim, but I think they weren't too far apart, and the prelude certainly out-performed the minim. I don't recall seeing minims in a professional setting much, if at all.

[Gerry]

Yes I can confirm that the Minim 23s are not as bright as the original Pat 23s.

I have a few Minim 23s would have preferred to buy original Pat 23s but they are now sold for silly prices for designer refurbishment.

Cheers

Gerry

[sunray]

A year ago I was cursing the 'designer lamp' fraternity but I confess that one of the things that went through my mind when I got these Minims was to polish the Patt 23's to get some money back but now I've seen what the Minims are like I think I'll change the lampholders in the Patt23's and stick with them.

 

Saying it knocks the spots off a Patt 45 which doesn't even have a reflector is not much of an accolade ;-)

Well that just shows how long it is since I opened a 45, it hadn't occurred to me there is no reflector. Thinking about it however the lamp replacement is a door on the rear so it makes a lot of sense.

 

And it also explains why a Microspot 308 is similar performance to a 45.

[Don Allen]

This Minim 300W brochure from 1981 states " now from Rank Strand, a powerful lightweight spotlight for display lighting, in a range of colours, offering instant beam adjustment from spot to flood." It also states "Minim is supplied complete with a 300 watt 2000 hour, long life TH lamp."

 

This Minim Spotlights brochure promotes them as 500/250 Watts makes no mention of display lighting use or range of colours and wattage has been increased to 500 watts, which is a bit more than what they were designed for. Most of the ones I see show sign of overheating.