PA system

[Jamesjcullum]

Hi there new to the forum so apologies if I have done this wrong.

 

Basically I run a small tight function band that is really picking up of late and I want to upgrade my system whilst also simplifying it. At the moment for smaller functions I run a db technologies 2.4k rig 2xsub15d under 2 flexsys 12's and for larger rooms I run db technologies gala rig of 4xsub15d's und 2 flexsys 212's. Now I want something in between the two. But the choices seem endless. I was gonna start at the subs and work up so am pretty set on the rcf 4pro 8003as but not sure what to put over them. Art712's, rcf art 725, Yamaha dsr 112's, fbt promaxx 14a, rcf hd'32's or any other of a similar spec.

 

The important thing for us is vocal clarity as our singer is top class and I want to reproduce that as best as I can.

 

Audience size never really goes over 200. Budget is a factor unfortunately didn't want to spend over £1600 for a pair of tops but I'm also happy with used equipment.

 

Many thanks to all who read my babbling.

[Simon Lewis]

Hi, James, welcome to the Blue Room!

 

 

You raise an interesting question - so here's a few thoughts for you... what do you want to achieve in your upgrade? Is sound quality your goal? easier setup? ability to cover a wider or deeper audience area? higher sound pressure level?

At present, I'm guessing there isn't a great deal of difference between the 12s and the 212s except weight, power handling and the narrower horn of the 212? Using the same bins means you can easily "scale" the system up, but I think it's good to keep to the same speaker series fo rbins and tops - in order to fully integrate the design. For vocal clarity I woud lconsider smaller, rather than larger top box mid drivers, but it's also worth considering what your coverage area needs to be wrt the HF horn.

Unless you need to end up with several PA systems, might one better quality system be the way to go?

 

Simon

[Jamesjcullum]

Hi and thank you for the welcome. One pa set up is the main focus of what I'm trying to do here. I want rid of my db technologies stuff as I have used it in other bands for the last 6 years and the subs to me don't sound as full as the sound I want in my head. Another band I have worked for just gig with a simple set up of rcf 905's and art 422's and that pretty much covers 90% of the gigs they do so my train of thought is to aim for slightly more than that to cover 100% of what I want with my band.

 

Weight and transport aren't an issue either I'm happy with heavy equipment.

 

I want as "full" a sound as possible from a 4 box rig and unfortunately there isn't the budget there for higher end stuff like Martin, logic and shermann type speakers.

 

The db technologies top boxes are different sounding to each other. To my ear in a nice room the single 12" sound a bit nicer than the 212's but both are nice sounding mid tops. I think some of that is from the wooden construction over plastic.

 

James

[Simon Lewis]

...I want as "full" a sound as possible from a 4 box rig and unfortunately there isn't the budget there for higher end stuff like Martin, logic and shermann type speakers.

 

perhaps this is the thing that needs considering most... I know budget will be a major issue but if it is the deciding factor you may not get the best solution for your needs. There can be something of a jump from the crop of speakers you mention to the more 'professional' or 'high end' speakers you feel you can't afford. Spending a lot of money in making a 'small' incremental change in quality may not be the best way forward? If I was in your position, I'd start reviewing and listening to rigs like a Nexo PS10/LS600 or perhaps some of the scaleable solutions and keep looking for second user deals. Having good links to a PA hire company will help with gigs that need more gear without the cost of buying more.

Whilst 'good' gear may attract a premium price, you will be happy with the sound for every use and you are likely to get more back on resale.

[Jivemaster]

Hire a sound engineer with a decent rig and try different ones out for a few gigs, yes you pay, but you don't end up not liking the kit you have bought.

[dbuckley]

I'd have a listen to the RCF TTs. These boxes are more expensive (and heavier!) than most of the boxes they sort-of look like, but they do perform in line with their cost, and if you only want one system, it might work out really nicely.

[Alec]

The challenge is that your desired outcome is a big leap, but your budget is enough for only an incremental move.

One of those will have to give...

[Jamesjcullum]

Ok thank you all for the replies. How about this for a set up then. Kv2 ex2.5's under kv2 ex10's anyone have experience with the make or the boxes in question. My worry would be could the 500watt tops keep up with the 1600watt bins? Could I even put the 2.5's under a pair of rcf710's (that I already own) whilst I save gig money for some bigger tops maybe kv2's or another pair of pro style boxes?

[Jivemaster]

So much depends on the sound you want to have, the venues you play and the line up of the band that you would have to make some well planned tests to see whether you liked a system from the audience's position.

[Simon Lewis]

Ok thank you all for the replies. How about this for a set up then. Kv2 ex2.5's under kv2 ex10's anyone have experience with the make or the boxes in question. My worry would be could the 500watt tops keep up with the 1600watt bins? Could I even put the 2.5's under a pair of rcf710's (that I already own) whilst I save gig money for some bigger tops maybe kv2's or another pair of pro style boxes?

 

KV2 make some very nice boxes. Some people really like them, others are perhaps not so sold on them. What is important is having seemingly upped your budget from around £4.2k to around £13.2k plus protective bags/cases you do not buy on the strength of forum recommendations or glossy pics!

You might want to consider:

Flexibility - can the system cover various different venue shapes and sizes

Scalability - can I add to it when needed (or hire in extra boxes). Is it designed to be a one box per side solution or can it array with other boxes

Mounting options - in addition to stand mounting, can I suspend or fly it.

Rider acceptability - would semipro/pro bands want to use it (potential rental income).

Commonality - can I easily find extra boxes (to hire in, or rent out) locally or am I the only one in the area with an XYZ system

Sound quality - will it deliver what I'm looking for...

 

The KV2 bin you referred to can output more than the tops, but the manufacturer implies that it's not necessarily a 1:1 ratio in usage. Do bear in mind that all other things being equal, 500W to 1600W is 5dB difference! I would suggest you really need to be thinking in terms of matched, 'designed to work together' systems, rather than the pick and mix approach.

If you are thinking about systems at this level, then you can start listening to Nexo, Martin etc. and you are only a few £k short of buying a top level d&b audiotechnik rig...

 

It's time to start talking to some professional suppliers!

 

 

 

 

 

[Jamesjcullum]

Hi and thank you again. I have found es2.5 active bins used at £950+vat each and a pair of ex10's at £1700 used so budget hasn't tripled I'm afraid although I wish it would have done.

 

The rig is only for my band and will always be that way. The biggest gig we get is a large beer festival to about 1000 people but for that I don't need to fill the whole venue of 1000 and it's a one off, so generally our gigs are function rooms and marquees. I would love a nexo ps rig or Martin but the blackline rig seems underpowered for the price and nexo seems hard to find on the used market at the moment.

 

Band lineup is drums, bass, guitar, keys/synth and an amazingly strong female vocalist playing regular party tunes from stevie wonder to Bon jovi.

[Simon Lewis]

OK - we are back to checking out which of the better quality systems actually give the features and sound you want and being ready to make a move on good second user deals. It looks like the KV2 rig you refer to is pretty good value. That may be a function of its desirability (possibly not so popular?) and the resale value it attracts. This is also why used Nexo / d&b etc. is often much harder to come by...

 

Good luck with your search - and do let us know what you buy!

[Jamesjcullum]

I will let you know. Thank you. Yes was a tad concerned with the depreciation of the kv. I'm gonna use the weekend to hunt around and speak to a couple local hire companies to see what they use/recommend.

[timsabre]

My church has KV2 EX10s (flown) with a single EX1.12 sub under the stage. Used for rock-type music for about 400 people but at a fairly "polite" level, you'd definitely need more sub for party/gig levels. It is a nice rig, some people thought it sounded a little harsh initially.

[TonyMitchell]

...you are only a few £k short of buying a top level d&b audiotechnik rig...

 

Indeed, picking up some Q and a couple of D12s at the top end of that budget could be achievable, especially now Q is discontinued and rental houses are still offloading it to make way for Y.

 

The s/h price of a D12 seems to have come right down over the past couple of years - although still a current product, many large rental operations have/had many surplus to offload, as they quickly took the D80 route, primarily for the comparable rackspace economy the latter offered - which is good for small operators wanting to pick up a couple of D12s without breaking the bank.

 

Something like a pair of Q7 or Q10 over twin Q-SUBs could be the way to go.