Chinese lights

[Guest]

The technology that particularly Robe and Clay Paky design and invent through millions spent on R&D is incredible, however sadly Chinese companies come in, tweak these ideas slightly, and then put products on the market that the majority of venues can then afford.

In most cases, its then hard to see how you could spend 10 times more on buying essentially "the name badge".

When it comes to reliability, the big brands are much better, however as Paul was saying, to view them as a "consumable", you'd have to go through 10 fixtures to still pay less money than buying a big brand equivalent.

 

Edward

[paulears]

I'd have to dispute the big names are more reliable claim - certainly expensive moving lights have to be the most common repeated comment in my last 80 odd show reports - as in "the mover on LX2 did random things - again", or Mover on bar 1 needed to be reset.

sadly Chinese companies come in, tweak these ideas slightly, and then put products on the market that the majority of venues can then afford.

How is that sadly?

 

I understand the issues concerning r&d and rights, but Robe, for example, started out by making what were to all intents and purposes, cheap versions of MACs - nice, reliable, but somewhat chunky and styleless copies. So many similarities in the internal layouts and concepts - making them under a number of brand names as OEM manufacturers.

 

What I fail to understand is how the R&D costs and timescales are so high and long. If the Chinese can get products up and running in such a short time, why do the major manufacturers take so long and spend so much? Surely if Robe and Martin produced modular designs like the Chinese, they could easily get 'new' products up and running much more quickly? In many cases, the Chinese do not copy the entire product anyway. Look at the B-eye designs. The clever collimators, and complex internals are ignored by the Chinese - but the idea of a rotating lens front can be put in front of existing LED clusters and spun, with similar but different results, but without having to design complex innards. The end product bears a superficial similarity, but isn't the same.

 

They can do the same with loudspeakers too - the basic cabinet internal volume remains within the normal physics, but they can play around with the shapes and the hardware. Shipping for loudspeaker products makes them uncompetitive due to weight and size, but the price they can make line arrays, for example, means that if shipping wasn't so crazy a price, these would also be in lots of places doing no doubt, a reasonable job.

 

With so many named manufacturers starting production out there, with good results - I suspect the Robes and Martins will just remain as niche products - the bread and butter products becoming virtually all Chinese sourced before long.

[timsabre]

What I fail to understand is how the R&D costs and timescales are so high and long. If the Chinese can get products up and running in such a short time, why do the major manufacturers take so long and spend so much?

 

There's 2 reasons I think.

One is that the chinese are nearly always copying something that already exists - maybe not the entire fixture but lots of little bits of other fixtures. That is a lot faster than designing something from an idea in someone's head.

The other is that the major manufacturers design for quality and longevity. Anyone can design something that starts off working. It takes time and skill to design something that keeps on working - probably 25% of the design time gets you to a first working prototype. The other 75% of the time is making it good. There can be a lot of trial and error involved - if you are copying something then someone else has been through that pain for you.

[musht]

Chinese have learned a lot by copying , everyone does ;-) Also a bit like 4 minute mile , once someone does it , starts an avalanche of similar achievments.

 

China now moving on to originating ideas, things like integrated serial addressable LEDs came from the Far East,early Western designs were still multichip solutions.

 

Actually having certificates to prove the CE, TUV , UL.. etc markings can cost a bit ;-)

 

Kwality Kosts, cheapskate customers always want to save a few bucks a unit and Chinese can build to any quality your prepared to pay for.

[gyro_gearloose]

One is that the chinese are nearly always copying something that already exists - maybe not the entire fixture but lots of little bits of other fixtures. That is a lot faster than designing something from an idea in someone's head.

But stepper motors and their associated drive electronics were not developed by Robe/Martin/Futurelight/whoever, and the principles of projection and optics have been well understood for years, as has CMY/RGB colour mixing, so combining all of these things to create an intelligent fixture isn't quite the same as developing an entirely brand new product.

[timsabre]

One is that the chinese are nearly always copying something that already exists - maybe not the entire fixture but lots of little bits of other fixtures. That is a lot faster than designing something from an idea in someone's head.

But stepper motors and their associated drive electronics were not developed by Robe/Martin/Futurelight/whoever, and the principles of projection and optics have been well understood for years, as has CMY/RGB colour mixing, so combining all of these things to create an intelligent fixture isn't quite the same as developing an entirely brand new product.

 

I disagree. There's all sorts of engineering problems to be overcome, it's not just a case of bolting together a load of off the shelf design elements. And I have designed some commercial intelligent fixtures.

 

What would you class as "developing an entirely brand new product" then? I can't think of a product which uses entirely new technology throughout. Everything has elements of some other design in it - product development is all about pulling everything together into a reliable product at the price the manufacturer wants.

[gyro_gearloose]

There's all sorts of engineering problems to be overcome, it's not just a case of bolting together a load of off the shelf design elements.

I'm well aware that theres a lot that goes into designing intelligent fixtures, but my point was that you're not having to design your own motors, control ICs, or CPUS every time you design a fixture. To some extent some elements of all intelligent fixtures are off-the-shelf. Thats not to say that designing intelligent fixtures is easy. Of course it isn't, though as some manufacturers have found out its much easier if you can copy someone elses work :)

 

What would you class as "developing an entirely brand new product" then?

If we take the phrase 'an entirely brand new product' to its logical extreme then there aren't going to be many such products in all of human history, as almost everything uses some pre-existing technology in some way. However, if we define the term 'an entirely new product' to mean a product that introduces a new technology, then I would class the first DLP projector, the first wireless communications system, and the first mechanical computer to be among such products.

[timsabre]

I don't know about that. In the early 90's I designed a way to microstep stepper motors using a simple 8051 micro and ULN2803 driver chip. At the time everyone was using the PBL3772 type chipset to microstep (most pro fixtures still are). Yes, I did not design the actual 8051 or the ULN2803 or the stepper motor but the solution was a new development, in my opinion. It enabled the production of cheap disco fixtures with steppers - up to then everyone was using RC servos. Then the chinese company Acme ripped off my design... it was very disheartening.

[bigclive]

I can vouch for the fact that research and development is not only very time consuming, but also very expensive. Every single prototype made is a one-off and what will be made in seconds in a mass production environment takes hours to do by hand, especially when designing it in your head as you go along.

 

The best way to prove this is to suggest that the doubters actually build a prototype light from raw materials.

 

It's not as simple as just banging a lamp and some lenses in a box.

 

The reliability of the larger high profile lights is down to the sheer amount of use touring lights get and the fact they have a significantly higher amount of mechanical and electronic equipment in them than a cheap Chinese disco light.

 

Then there's structural design. If you put a cheap Chinese light in a flight case and sent it on a single tour it would come back looking very rhomboidal with components dropping out of every orifice.

[Graham NZ]

This is an interesting discussion for me. I spend my life in China working with a range of manufacturers developing products from pretty high end to very basic. What I can tell you is over the 20 years I have spent in visiting the area and now living in it things have changed radically in some factories. There are definitely the small "copy shops" making fixtures for a budget price with little real input from an in-house RnD team. There are however several factories with significant RnD teams who do not copy products. They develop from scratch optical systems, software, drivers, electronics and LED arrays. The LED arrays are often now a joint development between Lumileds and or Osram and the factories.

 

Costs... China isn't as cheap as it was when it comes to quality products. The electronics, LEDs, fans, motors, lenses etc are all the same sort of price as a western manufacturer would pay for like products. Labour is still a lower cost on the production line but I think many people would be surprised how much a good software engineer or optics engineer will earn in China. It is getting very very close to par with western equivalents. Also don't think these engineers aren't as smart as western engineers. One factory I visit has an optical lab that would be way beyond anything in terms of equipment and staff than I have seen at several western companies. Where costs are less is in building prototypes. Nearly every large factory has several 3D printers, small run PCB facilities and plenty of labour to throw at building them. They are faster and more responsive to customers I believe in this area than most, if not all western manufacturers.

 

The other big cost saving is in volume. I don't think many people understand the throughput in some factories in this region. They are benefitting enormously from getting price breaks on volume for components.

 

These are just some factors that make products from China cheaper.

 

Buy the right products from the right factories and you will buying I believe products as good as any other global manufacturer. The trick is knowing the factories, the culture and wanting a long term relationship. This is a pitfall for many who naively visit one of the big Chinese trade shows.

 

Don't believe me about quality and design ask about LED video screens...

[timsabre]

Hi Graham, that is interesting, and you can definitely see if you get your hands on an end product whether it is the output of a "copy shop" as you put it or something that has actually been designed.

The problem is that it is very difficult to identify this when you are thinking of buying something...

[Graham NZ]

TIm

 

this is very true which is why I would say pay the little extra and buy from one of the big importers from the region who sell their own branded product. They are the ones using people like me to get the quality that allows two year warranty etc.

 

If you buy direct you can get lucky and get good quality and save some money but if it goes wrong you would have been better dealing with someone in Europe. \

 

Cheers

[medina]

Just an observation to add to the topic, last week I had a national tour come into the theatre, reasonable size show...all the LX were Chinese copies. Dimmer curves we ok, colours well matched across the washes. There were one or two pixels out on the wash lights but on the whole there didn't seem to be anymore issues with the fixtures than I've seen on other shows touring Robe and Martin units. Have Chinese units come to a point where they are acceptable for the bigger players in theatre?

 

Profile heads were like these Clicky

 

Washes like these Clicky

 

And these Clicky

[paulears]

Medina - can I do a little hijack? The profiles you linked to - 300W suggests mega brightness, what was your impression on overall brightness - the 90W ones I have are pretty bright - is there anything you can compare it to? I have some of those B-eyes - I don't like them. They are great for effects but lousy for solid washes of colour, what they do do is also very difficult to predict - two interacting parameters and you end up writing lots of presets into palettes so you can get what you want.

[timsabre]

I have some of those B-eyes - I don't like them. They are great for effects but lousy for solid washes of colour, what they do do is also very difficult to predict - two interacting parameters and you end up writing lots of presets into palettes so you can get what you want.

Real B-eyes are like that too though. You seem to have to get a lot of parameters in the right place to get the effect you were expecting.