Max hight before Railings

[JackStride]

Hi,

For an upcoming show involving students aged 11-14 (don't know if that affects the outcome to the question) we need to know how high we can build staging before we would need to install a safety railing to prevent students falling a great height. One technician who is highly qualified states it is 4 foot whereas another who has been through the amateur dramatics route states it is 2 foot. Are either of them correct and if so could you provide evidence to support either of the cases.

Thanks :)

[paulears]

There is no height rule. Just guidelines sometimes written by well meaning but theatrically illiterate people.

 

You just do your usual risk assessment - which takes into account the height, who will be on the platform and any special measures you need to take. 4 feet is a very common height for stages that have a clean drop to the audience level. It's not a rule, or a regulation, just a convenient and established height that works for sight lines. It wasn't chosen for any safety reason - just performance ones. Am dram has no rule on this at all as many use professional venues. So there is no evidence to collect. You must do what you see as safe, if you will be the responsible person in charge (or in court if you get it wrong).

 

The stage at my own venue is 1.4m, and it's been that high for 58 years - but that means little. In Grimsby we played on a stage that was 2.5m above ground, and that's a very strange feeling standing on it. However, it has some glow tape indicating the edge, and it doesn't seem to be a problem.

 

Schools set their own rules. 600mm is common in schools because that's the height of their modular staging. Proper steel/ali decking tends to have legs pre-cut - and 600 and 1200 are just popular heights for their inventory.

 

Your risk assessment really is the way to do it. Consider the probability of somebody falling off? With a bit of glow tape on the edge, in performance, the risk is probably quite low - if the kids are well disciplined and aware and partially responsible for their own safety. Your risk assessment will probably reveal a higher risk from people deliberately jumping off down to the ground - common rehearsals. So twisted ankles, perhaps shin damage and at worst a broken leg would be my areas to look at. Install a kick strip at the front 25 x 50mm or so - 300 mm or so from the edge - that people will feel with their feet.

 

You might have people ex-industry (not this one) who might make a decree that the stage is a work platform. Then you're into the construction industry rules - designed for them, not us.

 

If you want precedents - then old fashioned school halls all have high stages, don't they!

[vinntec]

...following on from Paul's comments a musical production also often has an even longer drop from the front of the stage down to the orchestra pit, especially in a hired venue where youth groups often perform. In this case we normally use white gaffa tape along the front of the stage, and sometimes away from the front of the stage a foot or so (which often helps sound people with their boundary mics too). I have also used glow tape, but less often, and even UV tape with UV permanently on when in the round (so blackouts light up the tape). Having said all this it does happen that even professional actors have fallen off the front of the stage with a moment's inattention as they can't see a thing, especially in a sudden blackout. You have to make a judgement what the risks are for the staging you are going to use, the cast which is going to be on the higher levels, and the lighting states they need to get and off it in. You might also have to consider what happens if there is a power cut etc. There is no easy answer I am afraid.

[Roderick]

Adding to the very good points my learned friends made, reading the OP question I think he may be talking about the sides and back of the stage too as they are building a stage.

 

When it comes to kids on temporary stages that are not sided by solid walls then you should have proper handrails along the sides and back. Kids in that age group have the attention span of a wind-up toy so any well meaning warnings, instructions or other 'administrative' measures are quickly forgotten. And no amount of glow tape, white tape or kick strips are going to stop them from going over the edge.

For me, anything that is higher than a normal step will need handrails when you have groups of kids on stage.

[kerry davies]

Before anyone else responds can I remind members that Jack is a student, that the performers are children and that, from what he writes, there is nobody there competent enough to create an RA.

 

Jack, you need to give a lot more info such as; how many kids, do they dance, how high do you want the stage, what type of staging, what environment and, importantly, who is the "responsible" person.

BTW I would regard whatever your "highly qualified technician" tells you with caution. Four foot is a notable height for a stage but it has nowt to do with handrails. I have had handrails all round on 200mm stages and yet nothing on a 40 foot high one, it all depends.

[paulears]

I totally missed Kerry spotting Jack is a student.

 

Jack - it makes a big difference, because like it or not - whatever your staff decide is final. They might not be experts at all - they don't need to be. In a way, being an expert is kind of optional. What they are, though, is responsible for you - and getting it wrong means probably getting the sack, standing before a judge, perhaps being fined and even banned from teaching or working with young people. Unlikely, but quite possible. So if they decide the danger is too great. Then that's it. I wonder if you were trying to find something to show them to persuade them to change their minds? Even if you did - changing their minds is unlikely in my experience.

[JackStride]

The reason for the asking is because the staff stating it is 4 foot is the director of this particular show and doesn't want the railings obstructing the set design. The technician who states 2 foot would not allow for this to go ahead without sufficient evidence. Also, yes I might be a student but Im still a technician for this production and this shouldn't affect what reply I get back, Ive asked if anyone knows if there is evidence of a regulation in regards to this because its essential for me to know. Im not trying to persuade anyone, this is just to gauge what the correct regulation is so we know for now and for the future.

[paulears]

Why is this always down to me?

 

Jack - please. Stand back for a moment. You are NOT a technician, you are carrying out some, but not remotely all of a theatre technicians duty. The missing element is responsibility. Think of it as being in the forces. You might be a private, then corporal, sgt - and theoretically could become some kind of Major General. On the other hand, you could be an Army Cadet. everyone has official status in colleges - mainly for insurance reasons. It means that nowhere in the paperwork do you show as anything other than a student. As a student, you are allowed to be brilliant, but equally you are allowed to be totally unreliable and your own grading criteria allow for you having to have supervision in some aspects of your work.

 

So it really does impact on the advice we HAVE to give. You have no real legal responsibility, so no stripes on your sleeve or pips on the collar.

 

You have what is often called an honorary title - it means legally - zero! Your technician, however, would be the one in court, if they went with your opinion and it went wrong. Whoever makes the call bears the responsibility - and as a student you can persuade, and that is it.

 

We already explained that there is no regulation on this subject. As part of your course at some point you will be introduced the the concept of assessing risk, managing it and being responsible. The Government do not make regulations on individual activities - they simply say work must be safe, and the employers are responsible for making it so. Think about ladders. So many people think that ladders are banned, when the HSE go out of their way to try to tell people they have not banned them.

 

I wonder why you also decided to ask on a forum, rather than ask your staff? You are searching for something you won't find. Ask them.

[Roderick]

Paul, I think you are a little harsh on Jack.

He is just trying to find some information about a subject that matters to him and I think we should encourage that rather then pointing out his opinion is worthless, according to you.

 

For me, anyone who takes an interest in finding the best and safest solution to a problem is to be encouraged. And yes, the final decision in this case will be made by a responsible adult but that doesn't mean his interest is irrelevant. Like any sane person when there are various opinions, as opposed to fact, one tries to find out which makes most sense.

 

We have people on this forum who ask a wide variety of questions, 90% of which could be answered with 'if you don't know you shouldn't be doing the job' but are duly responded to.

People asking questions to learn from and to form a more balanced opinion is what this forum is about, blasting them is no helping.

 

Jack is not one the "12 year old CEO's of a hire company with 2 LED pars", he clearly states:

Im not trying to persuade anyone, this is just to gauge what the correct regulation is so we know for now and for the future

Let's help him do that even if it means pointing out that there is no hard and fast rule.

[Malcolm Gordon]

I wonder why you also decided to ask on a forum, rather than ask your staff? You are searching for something you won't find. Ask them.

It seems the staff can't agree.

The reason for the asking is because the staff stating it is 4 foot is the director of this particular show and doesn't want the railings obstructing the set design. The technician who states 2 foot would not allow for this to go ahead without sufficient evidence.

[Junior8]

They can carry on arguing until they are blue in the face because they won't find a 'right' answer. However for what it is worth in educational settings these days I would first try to raise the audience rather than the performers and if that was not possible use a set design that included protection on the three sides away from the front of the stage. But as Paul says it isn't down to you but good on you for asking. Incidentally what would you do? If it was down to you - as it may well be one day.

[Jivemaster]

Jack, as a student you do not have any responsibility for topics like this, you would never be called to face a judge or coroner to justify your actions including maybe accept responsibility for deaths or injuries. The technicians who have responsibility will have gained their knowledge from lots of other places, which may provide codes of practise based on their risk assessment at their place of work. hence their having different opinions.

 

However being aware of issues like this prepares you for real life issues that will happen in your entire working life.

 

The HSWA Work at Height regulations very specifically don't state a minimum height before needing to consider fall precautions. The responsible person needs to successfully minimise the risk and hazard of falls from height. Barriers may be part of that solution as may be catch nets, and energy absorbing mattresses, but staff training may be sufficient.

[vinntec]

Just as an example of why there is no simple answer, here is a commercial set from Scenic Projects which we hired for a youth production of Guys and Dolls. The upper level is 7ft above the ground and the handrails are only behind and at the sides. There was a risk assessment done by us before using this set and the risks were limited by restricting its use to a small number of actors at a time and blocking them away from the front - plus a total ban on actors getting on it outside of the production. Someone else might have decided the risk was too high but you can see clearly this is way above 4ft - but that doesn't mean that it gives you the green light as it is still down to a proper risk assessment by the competent authority (which should be the person who will get the blame if it goes pear-shaped).