Multi-channel playback systems

[paulears]

I'm just putting together a new project, and I'm looking for ideas for multi-track playback. The band will be probably 4 people plus a singer. The snag is that the band will rotate - so one gig we may have a guitarist and no sax player, the next might have no sax but guitar, and other permutations. Some of the songs also have short sections using instruments one of our regular guys can double, but his dep cannot play.

 

So all the sources live and recorded come up at the desk (an X-32) and the sound op balances real and recorded material. A PC or a mac would be available, as would an old Alesis HD24 - but it needs to be simple and reliable. Song lists probably not finalised until 30 minutes before curtain up. The band and singer would be on a mix of wedges and IEMS - personal preference more than need. Drummer would always be IEM - so handy for the count ins I guess. Backup wise we also need something - I'm thinking maybe a mono mixed version with click? No issues at all with the band and tracks, we've all got experience of playing to clicks - but the system MUST be reliable.

 

I guess computers could simply go direct in digitally to the mixer - but it would have been nice to have the band fire the tracks, not the sound op. Software? I suppose qlab on the mac, but what would be similar if we went PC? The system at the moment that we will be using has the X32, stage box, P16 personal mixers the distribution for them and works fine at the moment. So it's just adding multi-track playback. Given choice, I'd rather not have a computer involved, but can't think of a stand alone device. The HD24 is pretty awkward loading tracks, and a bit OTT.

 

If anyone has any ideas to smooth the quest - I'd love to hear them, especially any DO NOT USE XXXXXX posts. My old system had mono track on MD, or where the timing was obvious in the tracks a two channel mix from MD - and we still have piles of MD playback kit. OK for emergency, but we will have all kinds of stuff on the tracks, so it really will need mixing.

[MarkPAman]

Orchid Electronics (aka Mixermend) makes this, which many people would regard as the "proper" way to have multitrack with backup.

 

Sorry, iPad would not let me add to that :(

Think I'd look at QLab and a midi remote for control, going directly into the desk, with playback directly from penstick as the backup plan. But that's what will work with the hardware I already have, which is not the same as yours.

[paulears]

That's interesting Mark, I'll poke around with qlab to see how the midi remote works - I wonder if I can access it via the X32 cat5? Never tried.

 

That autochangover units are rather neat!

[Richard P-W]

Isn't this a job for Garageband on a Mac ?

[Jevans]

I'd definitely be looking more along the lines of a dual-Mac Mini redundant QLab system, though I'm obviously biased towards that sort of solution coming from a theatrical background. An X-DANTE card in the X32 would enable the connection of both computers simultaneously via Dante Virtual Soundcard - though an external backup switch is easier to manage as there's no need to set up a way to change the patches quickly inside the console. You can also get them in digital versions - Orbital do a rather nice range of backup solutions I've seen touring quite a bit: http://www.orbitalsound.com/sales-nemesis-intro.asp .

 

If you're going to involve a computer you really need everything duplicated as much as possible for maximum redundancy.

 

For getting MIDI in and out of an X32 I don't think you can do it over the Ethernet connection, but you can certainly use OSC from QLab over Ethernet, which I've done before with the X32.

 

I've not used an HD24 but did a very long time ago use the similar Mackie HDR24 - using an HD24 would certainly work, and would be quite elegant if you could get hold of another one for a backup, use the ADAT outputs and an ADAT redundant switcher going into an X32 ADAT option card. I'd be worried about future proofing and parts availability however, as computer based playback is only going to get more dominant.

[paulears]

I have seen some rather neat minimac rack mounting kits, so this could be the way forward. We ran these for panto - I was hoping to get something a little less complex rather than go this far, but I suspect I can't.

 

qLab is something I understand and am happy with, but I hadn't considered garageband - it's kind of a free beginners tool isn't it? The racks are already in Cubase - and I'd rather not have to learn a new piece of software. Actually if Cubase worked like Adobe Premiere where you can put sequences into sequence, I'd consider running the show from cubase live. My studio system is very stable, so that would be very simple - but it doesn't have the ability to load up a set list, which lab can do easily.

[peza2010]

Check out http://www.apple.com/uk/mainstage/

Similar to garageband but designed for live use and theres not really a learning curve at all if you have used any kind of daw before.

 

Control it from an ipad on stage, there is easy "set list" creation/adjustment/.

 

Id then always pump out all channels, and let your foh guy, or "the" foh guy to mute whatever isnt required. (Or mute them in the software if you prefer that option)

 

I should add - im certainly no apple fanboy, but mainstage does work well.

[dbuckley]

You could stick a Utrack-32 into your X32 expansion slot... You can control it from the iPad onstage that mixes the ears.

 

The official way is a JoeCo player, and these days it would be via Dante into the X32, but it isn't a low cost solution, and the JoeCos get a lot of hate, they are an accepted solution, rather than a liked solution. Though frankly, if I were springing for a JoeCo, I'd probably rather have a Sound Devices 970, they're intended for a different marketplace, but their users love them, unlike JoeCo users.

[Jevans]

A 970 isn't exactly a budget solution though - for the cost of one of those new you could easily afford a dual redundant QLab rig with all the trimmings, have money left over, and be left with a more flexible set of hardware to do other things when you're not doing multitracks?

[dbuckley]

A 970 isn't exactly a budget solution though

 

Of course it isn't; I did say "but it isn't a low cost solution". The 970 is an alternative to a JoeCo, at a similar price point, not to a pile a Macs.

 

If you want a reasonably budget solution, then the Cymatic LP16 fits that bill, but its all unbalanced and analogue; dem's the tradeoffs.

[Bobbsy]

On the basic question, I use (and have used for some years) Show Cue System running on a Windows laptop. It's always been very reliable--for full multichannel (i.e. beyond stereo) you have to go to the Pro version but even that isn't shockingly expensive.

 

Besides basic audio it can work with video and also MIDI cues--though I must admit that's something I've never had to use. However, I've now quite often done multi channel playback for quasi surround sound in a theatre setting and it's worked well.

 

Whether it suits your needs (which are different to mine) I don't know but they have a good demo version you can download. It's certainly a worth competitor to Qlab and Mac though.

 

Edited to add link: SHOW CUE SYSTEM

[GridGirl]

On the basic question, I use (and have used for some years) Show Cue System running on a Windows laptop. It's always been very reliable--for full multichannel (i.e. beyond stereo) you have to go to the Pro version but even that isn't shockingly expensive.

 

Besides basic audio it can work with video and also MIDI cues--though I must admit that's something I've never had to use. However, I've now quite often done multi channel playback for quasi surround sound in a theatre setting and it's worked well.

 

Whether it suits your needs (which are different to mine) I don't know but they have a good demo version you can download. It's certainly a worth competitor to Qlab and Mac though.

 

Edited to add link: SHOW CUE SYSTEM

 

I stage managed several musicals which used SCS for backing track playback. Very reliable and easy to use.

[empyfree]

I have no hands on experience, but a few of the larger function bands we work with regularly use Ableton to give us multi track versions of whoever hasn't turned up that night. They can strip it right back to just needing a vocalist.

[alistermorton]

We also use SCS and have found it to be pretty reliable and easy to use if it meets your requirements. Bug reports and enhancement requests do get addressed rather than filed for later, and the support online is pretty good, too. We use it for eight channels of audio, video playback, and midi cues to and from the lighting desk and sound desk. Worth a look, I think.

[paulears]

I've looked at SCS and it seems interesting and would free up the macs - as I have a spare rack mount windows machine?

 

The professional version with multiple outputs appears to be just over a hundred quid a year - one question though. They mention a cheaper upgrade next year - but do you need to do this? It isn't clear if upgrading is for new features and if you don't need them you could carry on using the original?

 

I could plug it direct into the X32 and use firewire or USB to access the 17-32 channels that I'm currently not using that much?

 

 

 

On the mac front, I do actually have MainStage - which I use occasionally mainly as a sample player - I didn't realise it even did playback. I use qlab, but it's not an absolute requirement.

 

I see the SCS can also handle video - that too could be handy, maybe feeding a projector? Thanks for the info folks - very useful.