Expanding Behringer X32 Outputs

[Dj Dunc]

Hello all.

 

The school I work in is installing a new digital church organ in the chapel. This involves its proprietary sound creation, going into opamps then via phono connectors into 18 ways of amplification.

 

The school is also wanting to use Hauptwerk to provide emulation for "extra toys" I believe, and this is also required to feed the same 18 ways of amplification.

 

Additionally, they are also wanting a stereo pair of choir mics installing (thankfully the cables are already run in!)

 

 

My proposed solution prior to knowing exactly how many outputs there were was an X32 and if money allowed with an S32 stagebox to remotely locate the desk.

 

The current issue is that with them wanting to have 18 outputs, and them not being keen on doubling up two of them to bring it to 16, how can I get another two individual outputs?

 

I took a look at the S32 Rack, and couldn't find a manual so looked at the S16 manual. This eludes to the fact that you can use ADAT to pull out two extra sets of outputs, and either split them or extend them. If I was to do this I have to use an S32 to ensure I don't lose the 32 channel soundcard ability from the X32 itself as I require that to be pulling in audio from Hauptwerk. Is this correct in my thinking?

 

The common usage for this desk will be every sunday morning at minimum. Generally it will be Organ OR Hauptwerk with the two choir mics (Not engineered) and occasionally additional soloist reinforcement which will be engineered. I plan on using hotkeys to assign presets to, to ensure ease of access to these setups.

 

A friend of mine mentioned that perhaps an X32 Core and external surface would be better, but I am limited to about £2500 for the desk and looms to get from phono into XLR and then XLR back out to phono. (No idea why its using phono but thats not my part of the install)

 

many thanks in advance.

 

Duncan

[TomHoward]

I can't completely understand the question, but the X32 has 16x balanced outputs on XLR, and an additional 6x balanced outputs on Jack (Aux Outs), give 22x analogue outs.

 

If you want to use the desk remotely, you can use a pair of S16s to give 32x XLR in and 16x XLR out at stage, or use an X32-Rack in place of the first S16, which will give you 22x Analogue Outs and 40x Analogue Ins at stage. (As you can re-route the Aux Ins/Outs over AES50 as well).

 

You could probably also do something with 3x S16s at stage and re-routing the Aux Outs over AES50 and converting them back to analogue with an non-standardly patched S16. Or use two AES50 lines. Or if t's a permanent run an analogue multi from the 22x Analogue outs on the desk or maybe just the 6x additional you need from the Aux Outs after the S16s.

 

Can't quite picture why 18 ways of amplification needs 18 analogue outputs but that's a different problem.

[timsabre]

Why do you even want this into an X32 if there is 18 ways of amplification?

 

I have done some work with Hauptwerk and other digital organs, and you just set the levels on the amps and that's it. The whole (slightly questionable) idea is that the different organ "pipes" stay separated with separate speakers to make the sound more realistic and avoid intermodulation etc. The organist controls the level with the stops and swell pedals on the organ (and will not thank you for messing with the levels).

 

If you need a line for recording etc then most of them provide a stereo mix out for this.

[Dj Dunc]

I agree on the whole "slightly questionable" element Tim. Not got my head entirely around it myself, although that is what they require.

 

The idea is at present they have 18 feeds coming from an organ into 18 ways of amp. They then want to selectively add in choir mics etc, and be able to handle EQ, Reverb etc on board. The main problem comes from the fact that they want to pull in Hauptwerk and the digital organ interchangeably without manually repatching. I figured that using an X32s soundcard would also save several hundred pounds on a soundcard as well.

 

In terms of the Aux outs, How can I route these internally? What I'm thinking in my head at present is Id like to set up the gain structure of the two organs, and then group those into a front knave and a stalls fader pair, then add the two choir mics in across again a selected amount or mix of outputs. I guess the question I'm asking is will the Aux Outs behave like any standard output if I need them to?

[timsabre]

Putting choir mics into the organ speakers?? This sounds like an awfully bad idea.

 

Also I would reiterate, you do not want the sound operator messing with the volume of the organ. The organist will absolutely hate it. I speak as an organist here. The level needs to be set appropriately on install and never touched.

 

I see what you mean about swapping between the organ and Hauptwerk, though it sounds like overkill to use an X32 for this.

[sclg]

I've been working with electronic church organs (and Hauptwerk) for many years and this does seem an odd approach.

The existing organ and - separately - Hauptwerk will have all the adjustment necessary to voice the organs to the acoustic of the space. That's a process that would take an organist many hours but only has to be done once. As an organist, I would probably try to kill anyone that then started adding outboard EQ or effects after that!!

 

I can see the point of the X32 in that you want to be able to switch 18 channels of amplification between the organ and Hauptwerk but I would have thought there must be an easier way to do it.

You just need an 18-way line level changeover switch!

 

Not convinced about sticking voice through the organ speakers either. Great thought and care is needed to place speakers for an organ if you want it to sound right and the final positions are unlikely to be good for voice.

 

Steve

[carlskeats]

Sounds like you just need a matrix switch. a couple of BSS Soundweb Blu 100's or similar would give you the ability to change which set of inputs you need and using a simple wall mount switch allows easy switch over. Also you will benifit by not introducing extra noise and keeping the signal path simple. Also the BSS Soundweb products will offer better sound quality and reliability than the Behringer X32.

[sam.spoons]

I have no experience of electronic pipe organs but I do have some small experience of sound reinforcement where choirs are involved. I assume, with a large electronic pipe organ installation, the speakers are placed in the organ loft (which is usually above and behind the choir stalls)? I can't see how you would get useful level to reinforce the choir using distant mics, in front of the speaker system, in a highly reverberant room before feedback made the system completely unusable?

 

Most traditional churches I've been in that use SR for the choir have distributed systems with the (usually small) speakers facing the congregation and remote from the choir and preacher.

 

edited for clarity

[Dj Dunc]

The likelihood is we would just route the choir to the Nave-facing rearmost speakers I would have thought to minimise feedback opportunity.The speakers for the new install have been placed in preexisting "boxes" in the roofspace, one above the Nave and one above the Choir. These are wood covered and can be seen in the following photo:

[timsabre]

Have you seen the speakers? (ps it's Nave, a knave is something completely different)

 

My experience of organ suppliers is that they use weird homebrew designs for speakers which look like overgrown hifi speakers. There's usually a lot of piezo tweeters around too. They are often not what you'd want to use for vocal reproduction, plus every organ manufacturer I know would be horrified if you started mixing stuff in with their pure organ waveforms.

[TomHoward]

The Aux Outs are freely assignable I believe, so could be assigned to mix bus outputs - it would all depend on how the internal routing of the console works?

If it was set up once, you could use an X32 Rack and an S16 as processing, and it could be used as a sound card, mixing together 18 stems from the organ with 18 digital stems (Just - that exceeds your 32 channel limit so would have to route some of the analogue or digital ins via Aux channels as well as only 32 standard channels - so going to struggle to fit 18 analogue plus 18 digital ins) BUT the whole concept sounds a bit mad. The 18 stems are no doubt designed to do directly into the amplification though so additional processing and levelling definitely sounds a bad idea.

Plus the speakers no doubt cover a narrow frequency range each - how would you even route the choir mics?

 

Using it as a set & forget for installation might plausibly be suitable (although there are probably better systems available - not throughly experienced in this area but something like a Soundweb or Media Matrix to pass the 18 stems through unaffected, and then filter & add a stereo / multichannel feed from digital organ would probably be a better idea, and keep the choir mics separate. I don't see the organ speakers being suitable for sound reinforcement.

 

Meant to add - set & forget processing means no control desk. X32 FOH to mix the organ sounds like a bad idea from the organist's point of view, defiantly. They get upset enough if you move their chair or lamp, let alone start messing with the organ itself.

[Dj Dunc]

Tim, They are indeed homebrew. Its a Phoenix Organs install and the guy seems perfectly happy for us to look at adding to his system. We won't be processing any of the hardware digital organ signals, it will just be anything Hauptwerk related or choir etc. Additionally levels will be preset on the desk and not touched.

 

Tom, the 18 analogue feeds will be always an either/or scenario with the digital ones, so shouldn't be too bad in terms of the patch, in theory it should just be a case of a quick patch recall.

 

I may need to relook at where the Choir system is going potentially. If we do end up pulling the additional mics out then I agree with people in that a BSS system will be more suitable, but the idea is to roll it into one.

 

As an offside, our organists and the installer are actually the ones that suggested feeding in items in the first place. Must be something in the soil around there!

[timsabre]

OK I'll stop raising objections then, but I still think you'd be better off putting in a matrix switcher for the organ(s) and a simple vocal PA with separate speakers for the choir mics.

It's certainly an impressive looking room.

[TomHoward]

Patch recall could be okay, but chances are you can fit both into one patch. I hadn't accounted for choir mics though, but you have 32 channels, plus 6 similarly routable Aux channels, so you can run 18 + 18 + 2 and still fit within the 38.

 

Need to think about the routing though, as you only have 16 mix buses, so I'm not certain how you'd combine sources into 18 different mixes. You still have the LR bus for one pair, but it's all getting very messy.

[i_hate_fisicks]

OK I'll stop raising objections then, but I still think you'd be better off putting in a matrix switcher for the organ(s) and a simple vocal PA with separate speakers for the choir mics.

It's certainly an impressive looking room.

 

Yes, definitely this!

 

I can't really fathom why they want to do Hauptwerk on a Phoenix organ. Surely one or the other would be fine. They're just paying twice for sound generation!