kingp Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 Hi there, Nothing on that thread except how to roll back the DL251 to a previous firmware version to get it to work with the X32. I know this, that's what I alluded to in my post. As I said, I originally had it working in September 2012!. The problem is we have to keep the Pro Series systems updated to the latest firmware as we work with touring engineers bringing their shows files all the time. We've had some real compatibility problems in the past and the latest G 2.3.1 is by far the least buggy and stable release. In the scheme of things, it would be a 'difficult' conversation trying to explain why our consoles have been downgraded in order to make the IO boxes work with an X32! Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatrickSmith Posted September 2, 2014 Author Share Posted September 2, 2014 So we're running some tests on this at SFL - I can confirm that M32 will work with the existing PRO series stage boxes if you roll back the firmware. I have M32 on its latest firmware working fully with a DL251 on firmware version G2.05.04 on my test bench. Without rolling back the firmware the stage box still passed signal and I had some headamp control, but the level was very low and there was no phantom power control. In terms of function, all 48 input channels and 16 output channels of the 251 are accessible via a single AES50 connection, so I see no reason why you couldn't connect to two of these if you wanted to using the M32's two AES50 ports. Video coming soon... Nothing on that thread except how to roll back the DL251 to a previous firmware version to get it to work with the X32. I know this, that's what I alluded to in my post. As I said, I originally had it working in September 2012!. The problem is we have to keep the Pro Series systems updated to the latest firmware as we work with touring engineers bringing their shows files all the time. We've had some real compatibility problems in the past and the latest G 2.3.1 is by far the least buggy and stable release. In the scheme of things, it would be a 'difficult' conversation trying to explain why our consoles have been downgraded in order to make the IO boxes work with an X32! We've been talking to Midas about this - we understand that they are working on a new firmware upgrade that will allow M32 to work with the DL stage boxes all on the most up to date firmware, although don't know how soon this will be ready for release. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatrickSmith Posted September 4, 2014 Author Share Posted September 4, 2014 ... and for those that are interested, here's a quick video demonstrating AES50 compatibility with the DL251. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 Nice video - thanks. One thing I hadn't thought was the Midas version of the S16 with the better pre-amps, so when they become available, that's also a useful possibility for X32 owners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingp Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 Thanks for the video Patrick, Just letting you know that none of the 1 series I/O boxes work with the X/M32 platform and they never have. An on-line search of 'X32 DL153' will reveal many threads about this issue - including posts from Music Group employees indicating that they do in fact work together. It seems many people have bought DL153 to use with the X32 and have been disappointed. It's a joke really and they really need to sort it out. Also, rolling back the DL251 alone to G2.05 to make it compatible with the X/M32 and leaving the Pro Series console with the latest G2.3.1 is not an option as then the console will not connect to the DL251... Arrrh! Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themadhippy Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 It's a joke really and they really need to sort it out. why?there items made by 2 different company’s owned by the same holding company,bit like getting upset when your bentley pistons wont fit your skoda engine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alistermorton Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 Am I missing something here? I can confirm that M32 will work with the existing PRO series stage boxes if you roll back the firmware. [./quote]Aren't they both Midas products, rather than trying to mix Midas and Behri? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 I think the point was Midas owners want universal access to products designed by different people now that the two companies are linked. Isn't this like wanting the expensive extra psu you bought for a mixer to be plug for plug compatible with one from a different series? The m32 is a new product for them with it's own dedicated and branded hardware. Even getting one older device to work is an achievement. Expecting universal compatibility with an entire range seems a wish too much. If these devices do get backwards engineered to make then compatible, the DL16 is not needed at all? Hippy's comment is valid here - you can't berate a manufacturer for not making an entire product range at different price points compatible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shez Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 How much of a standard is AES50? Shouldn't two different bits of kit from different manufacturers with AES50 ports just work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingp Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 Guys you aren't really understanding what I am saying... Had Music Group said from the beginning that the X/M32 platform and the Midas DL 1 and 2 series boxes were not compatible that would have been fine. However that was not the case, For example Behringer tech support have repeatedly said the DL153 should work with the X32 and were surprised to learn it was not even switchable to 48KHz. In fact the Midas product web pages on the DL153 have only recently been updated from saying 'selectable 96khz or 48 kHz operation' to 'open architecture allows for future 48 kHz operation' as, at the moment, it is locked to 96khz. (If you download the brochure you'll see it hasn't been updated) If you are in any doubt, don't take my word for it, look at this post: .....The X32 will also be compatible with the new flexible and affordable line of MIDAS stage boxes announced at WFX this week. They all feature MIDAS XL4 mic preamps and can be stacked in any configuration needed via AES50; all models are $1499 US MAP. There will be four models, which are DL151 (24 in), DL152 (24 out), DL153 (16 in x 8 out), and DL154 (16 out x 8 in)..... Uli Behringer CEO MUSIC Groupwww.music-group.com (as posted 3/10/13 on a popular American based forum) As for the DL251 well, my view is it is either supported or it isn't. If it IS supported then why is it left to users, through trial and error, to work out which combination of firmware updates are needed to operate the units together? and why in the release notes of the G2.3.1 firmware update did it not mention if would make the unit incompatible with the X/M platform?. Finally I would like to explain why I care so much. It's because with 7 Music Group Midas/Behringer consoles in stock along with associated DL series IO boxes at a combined value of around £50k I've bought into the system on the basis that all the rack IOs would work with whatever console they happen to be connected. These purchases were based on the information coming from the manufacturers of these products WHO KEEP SAYING THEY WORK TOGETHER and time and time again we keep hearing 'we're just working on a firmware update then all will be fine' - I say urgently sort it out or admit, once and for all, that you were wrong and these units are incompatible (at which point we'll probably ditch the X/M platform and just keep the Pro Series) Music Group is a massive, highly successful global company but in their handling of these issues they seem surprisingly amateurish. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatrickSmith Posted September 9, 2014 Author Share Posted September 9, 2014 How much of a standard is AES50? Shouldn't two different bits of kit from different manufacturers with AES50 ports just work? Just to shine a bit of light on this after further testing... Afraid that I can confirm that DL1 series boxes cannot currently work with the M32 as there is no option to switch them to 48kHz mode. So it would seem that the DL251 is currently the only option if you don't want to sacrifice the pre-amps and go for the S16. In answer to Shez's question - this is a little more complicated than it at first appears. From my bench testing I would suggest that the basic AES50 element works fine across platforms, but there is a little more going on here than first meets the eye. Firstly there is the 48/96kHz issue. AES50 can run in either, but as I've just highlighted, not all AES50 based hardware can operate in both. X32 is limited to 48kHz. PRO series only runs in 96kHz. M32 currently only runs in 48kHz, however some of the marketing has hinted that the architecture facilitates future 96kHz potential (I don't know any more about this and what we can or cannot expect to see in the future, we can only speculate at present). In terms of stage boxes, DL251 is switchable between both sample rates, whilst the DL1 series currently only does 96kHz. S16 is obviously 48kHz. As a point of note, every stage box I have connected has passed signal into the console. However connecting a stage box running 96kHz to a console running in 48kHz is obviously not going to produce good results. The console tries to interpret the 96kHz data as 48kHz data, which results in some weird effects (for instance a single input signal being spread across two channels on the console, and a lot of distortion). The point here is that the AES50 "standard" seems to be consistent across products, it is the sample rate discrepancy which is causing the major compatibility issues. Secondly there is the question of head-amp control. I don't know exactly how Midas encode control data on the AES50 connection, although I do believe that elements of this have changed between firmware revisions. From my testing I know that a DL251 on the latest firmware still passes audio signal to an M32 but not control data. The way M32 handles control data is clearly not the same as the current PRO series firmware but compatible with the previous firmware version (hence why we have to roll the DL251 back to get it working with the M32). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smalljoshua Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 I'm aware of changes in the way that Midas embed the control data onto the AES50 stream (to make it SuperMac) as they had some odd issues with Gains resetting but audio passing (we got bit on a show where everything went to 0dB and it wasn't until the show started that we noticed as playback was from FOH). I believe this is now (quietly) fixed in the latest version, it would however account for the changes in head amp control. Josh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j rayner Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 reports from people using this desk will be nice.I have the x32 and found it scary as hell but brilliant at the same time.still lurning Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingp Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 Hi Guys, Good news! V2.08 firmware was released on Tuesday and this fixes the connectivity issues with the DL251 running the latest G 2.1.3 firmware. We have the M32 working here as it should. It also states it fixes the issues with the DL1XX boxes, but they will still not work due to them being locked to 96khz. so I would hope for a firmware update for these boxes too soon. The firmware upgrade is availible from the Midas web site and there is talk on line that it works with the X32 family too even though (as yet) the version has not appeared on the Behringer site. Our flightcases arrived today and we've just sent the first on out on a show (with a DL251 btw). I the cases are quite a bit bigger than say, the X32 - this is purely due to the profile of the desk being deeper. I have pics if anyone is interested (not sure how to attach them) Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noiseman Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 2.08 Is now available on the Behringer site.Just need a working x32 to test it on as my x32 arrived today but was DOA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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