Behringer X18 - where next...

[S&L]

thought I would share this for gossip, comment etc.

some may remember that behringer were supposed to be bringing out an x16, ipad controlled wifi mini console, similar to the mackie range. then they went quiet and at the beginning of the year they announced a revamped x18...then they went quiet again.

well they released the software in preview version on itunes this week with a release date of september for the x18 and other x-air (the software) controlled items. yeah I know this will probably be december and behri are known for hype first release later. but I think we can assume that this thing is going to about by the end of the year.

apparently 16 channels plus an extra 2, 6 aux sends and software that appears to be x32-lite. plus 18 channel out for multitrack recording via usb.

there is no physical dock for an ipad and they have designed it to work wirelessly with pc as well as ipad - so that means you can run it remotely via a laptop or windows 8 tablet I guess.

 

now mackie beat them to market and so did the umix and they obviously want to have the big chunky sector of the market that mackie and yamaha have. So what happens next?

if they run true to form then they will price below mackie so that means £550 maximum.

I have been sat here wondering what I would like as a back up for my digital desk for the average show - something to get me by. I was thinking a small format analogue to stick in the boot of the car - but what happens to the analogue market when this is is available at this price point?

 

picture these senarios - bearing in mind the reputation of the x32, even with it's imperfections (there arent that many)

 

scenario 1 - you are a band looking to be mixed or mix yourself, outside of the rehearsal room in bars etc. do you bother with a £250 analogue desk or do you go for something like this?

scenario 2 - you have a series of light corporate gigs, do you stock an AH mixwiz for them or two of these for the same price (or a tablet and one of these for the same price)

scenario 3 - you are a small jobbing PA company, one night is an acoustic thing, the next night a small band, occassionally you get channel counts in the 20's but 30% or your work can be done with scene saves and 16 channels - you usually end up stuffed in a corner mixing - do you by an x32 rack, an old school mixwiz, or one of these (almost half the price)

 

of course I may be off with the price but I can't see it being priced at more than the DL1608 and probably some way less to steel a march on that market.

so what happens next?

food for thought

[Derek Tallent]

I'm not too sure the "race to the bottom" is what Behringer is completely about these days. 10 years ago, perhaps, not now.

 

The volume part of the business ie Behringer is what funds the premium part of the business - Midas/KT/Turbo, so I think they'll be looking to extract maximum profit from the Behringer product line, perhaps being slightly cheaper than Mackie and Yamaha but not by much.

 

Even if they bring out the X18 at, say £550, it's still not that cheap, as you have to factor in the cost of a tablet PC to run it, so you're still looking at the best part of a grand....

[sam.spoons]

I have had a Mackie DL1608 since October 2012 ( some months before the X32 was available) and paid I £999 for it, MixWiz money back then. I already had an iPad but have since bought a second so I can mix from the stage on playing gigs but with a mate (with, hopefully, good ears) in the audience looking after FOH during the set. On PA gigs I usually have one iPad docked while I mix fro the audience on the other, the docked one is my backup (though I have never needed it so far). It works well, the iPad mixing paradigm is brilliant and the Mackie desk sounds great and I get much interest and many complements on the sound. Mackie have a couple of issues with the latest DL1608s out of the factory, nothing which stops it working reliably but they reduce the usefulness of the docked iPad (mine has not had any problems and has been completely reliable BTW). The DL1608 is now down to £670 and may of us already own an iPad, if Mackie address the issues (which they are taking steps to do) it represents amazing value for money. The X18 will need to be similar or only slightly more expensive to be a big seller (and it will have to be in the shops...).

[Electrolytic]

the X18 will have better preamps than the DL1608, which are poor by the way. The X18 will have a bigger feature set and more virtual rack options than the DL1608. It will be way betterer.

[sam.spoons]

Realisitically, if you can hear the improvement in the pre amps between DL and X32 offerings over a small to mid sized PA on a live gig you have much better ears than most on here. The X18 (if it ever arrives) will undoubtedly be better than the DL but that's progress. I have had pro engineers (most recently one of Bellowhead's guys doing FOH for Faustus) comment on how nice the desk sounds so the pre-amps can't be too bad and I'll have had the pleasure and enjoyment of gigging with my DL for over two years by the time the X18 comes out.

 

Anybody buying new desk will have to choose between the DL1608 at £650 (assuming the price doesn't fall further) and the X18 at £???. I'd guess it'll have to be under about £750 given that the X32 Rack and Producer are both under £1000 so it could end up a good buy.

 

I'm not anti-Behringer BTW, I'm about to buy an X32 Compact or Producer so I'm glad to hear the X32 pre's are even better than my DL pre-amps.http://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif

[Electrolytic]

I was referring to the pre-amp functionality more, the mackie pres have come a long way sonically. I don't feel I got the tactile feedback from the position of the pot that actually corresponded to what was happening with the pre amp. The pre amp didn't have much 'mileage' in it and went into distortion quite rapidly, It couldn't cope with hot signals very well. That I felt let it down, I didn't have the usability I was used to from better pres not just X32.

[sam.spoons]

I was referring to the pre-amp functionality more, the mackie pres have come a long way sonically. I don't feel I got the tactile feedback from the position of the pot that actually corresponded to what was happening with the pre amp. The pre amp didn't have much 'mileage' in it and went into distortion quite rapidly, It couldn't cope with hot signals very well. That I felt let it down, I didn't have the usability I was used to from better pres not just X32.

 

Fair enough, but, in the real world down here at the grass roots (or the sticky bar carpet) level they work and sound (to better ears than mine) just fine so, for the money, they get the job done. As you said the X18 will probably be a better mixer than the DL1608 but, compared to what I was using two years ago, the DL1608 is light years ahead. It's a very good small desk and at the current price, is still the best in a class of one. http://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif

[noiseman]

For those interested the Ipad app for this desk (which you'll need to run it) is now available.

 

Xair app link

 

I've had a play and I hope this is a skeletal Beta version as at the moment it's nowhere near as functional or intuative as the x32 app.

[Derek Tallent]

And of course the X Air app is only for iOS.

 

Where's the Android App ?

 

It's not just Behringer; Allen & Heath, Soundcraft and other do it as well. Only on iOS.

 

Sorry, some of us don't have iOS, so why should I buy your product ?

[timsabre]

There is a 3rd party android app called Mixing Station which works very well.

 

I still don't understand why Behringer haven't provided one. I can only think all their marketing people are apple users (not too hard to imagine)

[Alec]

Where's the Android App ?

 

It's not just Behringer; Allen & Heath, Soundcraft and other do it as well. Only on iOS.

 

Sorry, some of us don't have iOS, so why should I buy your product ?

Absolutely!

 

In the toss up getween a GLD or X32 system, the X32 starts to nose ahead as there is at least a 3rd party Android app that seems to work reasonably well. Can't see any other mixer supplier *ever* doing Android. Behringer have promised one for the X32 since launch, but still not delivered.

 

Disappointing all round...

[Stuart91]

Where's the Android App ?

 

Have you contacted any manufacturers to state your preference? Spoken to any reps at a trade show?

 

I expect that putting together a well produced app for a mixer takes a lot of work, and producing an Android port will not be a trivial task. Manufacturers will only go to that bother if they know there is a market for it.

 

From my very unscientific sampling of band engineers and technicians in general, Apple seem to be very well represented, probably over 50% of the devices I see. I expect it'll be a fairly natural choice to develop for iOS first. Unless people tell them otherwise, it's going to continue to be the case.

 

Sorry, some of us don't have iOS, so why should I buy your product ?

 

If you're spending a four figure sum on mixer, surely ~£200 for a refurbished iPad 2 isn't a silly price to pay for a wireless remote? I imagine if the manufacturers were producing dedicated hardware remotes, that had their own badge on it rather than an Apple logo, nobody would complain the same way...

[Derek Tallent]

Ideally I'd like to be able to offer my rental clients the opportunity to use the device they want to. Ipad only accounts for a third of the tablet market; other tablets (Android and Win8) do exist and I'd choose them every time over an ipad

[Stuart91]

Ideally I'd like to be able to offer my rental clients the opportunity to use the device they want to.

 

We just bought cheap iPads that live with the console, so it hasn't really been an issue.

 

Once a user is inside the app, the performance should be identical between iOS and Android or any other platform. So I can't really see it being a problem for many end users.

 

Ipad only accounts for a third of the tablet market

 

Then why do manufacturers choose to develop for iOS alone? It won't be because they're all Apple Fanboys, there must be solid commercial reasons for doing so. I have a hunch that many of them will be sitting on research indicating that the majority of their target customers use Apple products, and their development decisions reflect that.

[alistermorton]

It could be as simple as the IOS platform tends to be all the same release of IOS (people tend to auto update) whereas there are still several different versions of android in the wild, all with subtle but real differences. There are two different Win8 tablet platforms, although WinRT is dead in the water and dead from the neck up.

 

As a user of IOS and Android devices (iPhone and a Galaxy S3 phone) I must say the Android to me is still a bit behind IOS in polish and usability - that alone may influence which platform to develop for.