S&L Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 I know we are primarily about live arts here but I'm thinking about a recording problem and could do with comment from a few sage heads. as a result of working as sound engineer for a bluegrass outfit, they asked me to do some live recording with them last June. I took an x32 out for the night as a test, we recorded a show, multitrack via usb to reaper on pc laptop. we played back later and mixed the 16 or so channels down to a rough stereo master - no problems - in fact surprisingly easy with decent results for a rough trial.https://soundcloud.com/howard-tomlinson/ramblin-riversiders-bring-it we had another pass at mixing a few songs in October and again no problems. then they came to me and said they would like to put the live album to one side and could I record a 'studio' album with them, the same way, recording 7 or so tracks simultaneously then overdubbing one track at a time. I knew this wouldn't be a problem, as I had already tried this already as an experiment. so that's the background - now the specifics. One of their guitarists goes a bit mad with echo and reverb on his guitar (think trying for country and ending up like duane eddy). I would like to record him neat and add fx later. so apart from getting him to tone it right down, I was thinking of splitting his signal before pedals etc and sending to DI. then recording both his DI signal and his live guitar for reference. then playing back his DI guitar via a monitor channel, at my leisure, routed to an amp and recording the amp. (I could also try the on-board simulator but I am sceptical until proved otherwise). would this re-recording present any time delay or tone problems? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkPAman Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 If you can, it may be worth also recording with a second DI between pedals & amp. Getting the recording back into the amp & sounding right depends on the amp & the audio output you use, but is usually not too big a problem when I've tried it. There are, of course, things designed for the job, like the Orchid Electronics Amp Interface. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 No, it's fine, and at worst you could always replay the clean guitar into his system and then re-record that if he's adamant he needs those effects. The latency of the X32 isn't an issue recording, and even if it did, then just re-sync the tracks in the recorder software. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david.elsbury Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Think the box you seek is called a 're amping box' Hth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S&L Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 I had seen the re-amp box and wondered whether a standard passive SDI would do.I haven't had any latency problems with overdubs but being practical and lacking theory background I wondered if the record-channel out-mic back-rerecord added any time delay. I'm going to try and get what I need 'to tape' in the first place but I wanted the comfort of being able to re-engineer his sound afterwards. it's one of those thigns that's been occupying too many of my brain cells, which is what tends to happen before I ask here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomHoward Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 It will add time delay, but if I'm right the X32 runs at about 5ms delay, so being re-amped the time delay should be about the equivalent of the guitarist being 5 feet further back on stage? Not time delays you really need to worry about. The only thing that would concern me a little would be the spill from the original guitar take on stage, if you have a lot of open mics and a fairly loud guitar stage level, there may still be a lot of that track you can't remove - but if it works in conjunction with your re-amped 'toned down' sound that it may not be a problem anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbuckley Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 The only thing I'd note with reamping in general is that try keep as much noise off the track as possible, as often when reamping one has a distortion stage involved (any of a pedal, simulator, or steaming amp), and distortion is just extreme compression, and this will bring your incoming noise floor up significantly, maybe right up to the level of the signal during quiet or silent passages. Don't underestimate amp simulators. In isolation, they often sound awful, but in context, they are fine. Then again, a mic in front of a Marshall at full clip sounds pretty awful when solo'd at low volumes in a quiet environment too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timsabre Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 The X32 amp simulator is pretty good, we use it in our "silent stage" church rig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S&L Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 I will give the amp simulator a whirl then.re spillover, I'm not worried in the sense that you rarely get real isolation on stage with these guys - when I put the song linked above up on the faders it turned out that the double bass mic picked up the rest of the band and so did pretty much everything else - it's just not noticeable when mixed. I'm hoping when I record them in my rehearsal room I can achieve a little more isolation - but some spill over helps with the live feel - and the live feel is apparently why they want me to record them rather than go back into a conventional studio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sam.spoons Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 I will give the amp simulator a whirl then.re spillover, I'm not worried in the sense that you rarely get real isolation on stage with these guys - when I put the song linked above up on the faders it turned out that the double bass mic picked up the rest of the band and so did pretty much everything else - it's just not noticeable when mixed. I'm hoping when I record them in my rehearsal room I can achieve a little more isolation - but some spill over helps with the live feel - and the live feel is apparently why they want me to record them rather than go back into a conventional studio. Nothing wrong with a little spill IMHO, as you say it helps to preserve the live feel, many semi-pro 'one instrument at a time' recordings sound lifeless and sterile (and don't get me started on click tracks for most bands). I much prefer live (or 'live in the studio') recordings of all but the best bands, a good live band should play to their strengths.Latency should not be an issue if re-amping as you can easily time shift the new track in your DAW to compensate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S&L Posted January 22, 2014 Author Share Posted January 22, 2014 I will give the amp simulator a whirl then.re spillover, I'm not worried in the sense that you rarely get real isolation on stage with these guys - when I put the song linked above up on the faders it turned out that the double bass mic picked up the rest of the band and so did pretty much everything else - it's just not noticeable when mixed. I'm hoping when I record them in my rehearsal room I can achieve a little more isolation - but some spill over helps with the live feel - and the live feel is apparently why they want me to record them rather than go back into a conventional studio. Nothing wrong with a little spill IMHO, as you say it helps to preserve the live feel, many semi-pro 'one instrument at a time' recordings sound lifeless and sterile (and don't get me started on click tracks for most bands). I much prefer live (or 'live in the studio') recordings of all but the best bands, a good live band should play to their strengths. Latency should not be an issue if re-amping as you can easily time shift the new track in your DAW to compensate. of course I have to learn how to do that! sure it will be fine.I had to giggle when you said click track tho - these guys don't even use a proper drum kit and formed in 1956 (with the original band leader still there!) they pre-date monitors, much less click track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sam.spoons Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 I will give the amp simulator a whirl then.re spillover, I'm not worried in the sense that you rarely get real isolation on stage with these guys - when I put the song linked above up on the faders it turned out that the double bass mic picked up the rest of the band and so did pretty much everything else - it's just not noticeable when mixed. I'm hoping when I record them in my rehearsal room I can achieve a little more isolation - but some spill over helps with the live feel - and the live feel is apparently why they want me to record them rather than go back into a conventional studio. Nothing wrong with a little spill IMHO, as you say it helps to preserve the live feel, many semi-pro 'one instrument at a time' recordings sound lifeless and sterile (and don't get me started on click tracks for most bands). I much prefer live (or 'live in the studio') recordings of all but the best bands, a good live band should play to their strengths. Latency should not be an issue if re-amping as you can easily time shift the new track in your DAW to compensate. of course I have to learn how to do that! sure it will be fine.I had to giggle when you said click track tho - these guys don't even use a proper drum kit and formed in 1956 (with the original band leader still there!) they pre-date monitors, much less click track. 1956! They almost pre-date electricity http://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S&L Posted January 22, 2014 Author Share Posted January 22, 2014 I will give the amp simulator a whirl then.re spillover, I'm not worried in the sense that you rarely get real isolation on stage with these guys - when I put the song linked above up on the faders it turned out that the double bass mic picked up the rest of the band and so did pretty much everything else - it's just not noticeable when mixed. I'm hoping when I record them in my rehearsal room I can achieve a little more isolation - but some spill over helps with the live feel - and the live feel is apparently why they want me to record them rather than go back into a conventional studio. Nothing wrong with a little spill IMHO, as you say it helps to preserve the live feel, many semi-pro 'one instrument at a time' recordings sound lifeless and sterile (and don't get me started on click tracks for most bands). I much prefer live (or 'live in the studio') recordings of all but the best bands, a good live band should play to their strengths. Latency should not be an issue if re-amping as you can easily time shift the new track in your DAW to compensate. of course I have to learn how to do that! sure it will be fine.I had to giggle when you said click track tho - these guys don't even use a proper drum kit and formed in 1956 (with the original band leader still there!) they pre-date monitors, much less click track. 1956! They almost pre-date electricity http://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif yeah a privilege to work with though and I have learned so much that I didn't expect to. mad as a box of frogs but fun if you go with the plot - 8 permanent members (and occasional guests.....wait a minute, is that a piano you are bringing in?...you might have told me!) , seven lead vocals with the others alternating backing vox, double bass, 2 electric and one acoustic guitars, 2 washboards, blues harmonica, trash can, kazoos and miscellaneous percussion as well as mandolin and improvised instruments '...err 2nd set tonight I'm going to use a briefcase for a drum is that ok, can you mic that?...(2 minutes before 2nd set)...oh why the hell not...' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david.elsbury Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 '...err 2nd set tonight I'm going to use a briefcase for a drum is that ok, can you mic that?I was on a church camp once, and it was discovered that the drummer forgot the pedal for the kick drum. So we did what any sensible person would do. We miked up a roadcase lid that the drummer stamped on. Worked ok... Also improvised a keyboard sustain pedal by gaffing tinfoil on the floor, and on the sole of the player's shoe - and then taped each side of a 1/4" jack cable to it. Worked apart from him having to take his shoe off! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electrolytic Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Radial re-amper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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