Under 16 Work experience and the Law

[the kid]

 

I don't want to be a scaremonger, but when I was in a school a few weeks ago, I was warned about a student who persistently makes complaints about staff, and her parents are at the school at the drop of a hat. A family with a huge chip on the shoulder. Imagine getting one of these as a work experience person. Some poor lighting or sound person gets them to work with and accidentally offends them and a complaint comes in. If this person hasn't been vetted, then even if they are totally innocent, you can imagine how it could go - one person's words against a poor defenceless 'child'. I spent some time with this particular girl, wary of being left alone with her, so if she reacted, I'd have at least one witness. It's a crazy world, but handing out a work experience person to work illegally could be very tricky!

 

We did do the 'what is work?" thing a year or two ago, and I think that we decided that what the kids were doing was indeed considered 'work' - even though some simply observe. I think somebody made the point that even if you get them to make the tea, during work time, it's not education - it's low level work. If the worker is working illegally, even by ignorance, it doesn't matter in law.

 

 

We had a thing at the old job that no one was doing work experience, and while not REQUIRED it was a thing that people wanted to do. Turns out the council would do the visits when asked to (possibly for a fee), to "jobs" and go over the paperwork at the company, check what policy's they had or didn't have, and any changes, then we would provide everyone with info about everything and I think we may have even had a phonecall a day to check the student I might be wrong on that.

 

I believe that there was also an option of employing someone whos sole job was to vet places and visit work experience students.

[kerry davies]

While agreeing in principle with I Tom on "let sleeping dogs lie" it can have hazardous side effects.

 

The confusion over regulation within council departments led to 68 younger drivers holding council permits to drive minibuses while not having the requisite UK driving licence in one city council. Thousands of kids being transported by unlicensed and therefore uninsured drivers is not good news.

 

Do check out all the angles, rules and regs but also insurance. Make sure inexperience and youth is considered in RA's and that health and welfare rules for minors are considered. One council department might give the all clear while another would place instant blocks on it.

 

Westminster also has the estimable Tim Owen, any one of whose department staff can advise on outdoor events and filming.

[abbotsmike]

While agreeing in principle with I Tom on "let sleeping dogs lie" it can have hazardous side effects.

 

The confusion over regulation within council departments led to 68 younger drivers holding council permits to drive minibuses while not having the requisite UK driving licence in one city council. Thousands of kids being transported by unlicensed and therefore uninsured drivers is not good news.

 

Would that be the confusion around post '97 licenses, D1 entitlement and the ridiculous 3.5t rules by any chance? Been going through something similar (although pre-emptive, rather than reactive) with my scout group recently.

 

On the work experience front, WHY are theatres banned? I can think of far worse places. Some of my school friends went to various fast food outlets, with hot oil, a lack of space and too many staff rushing around (ever seen a mcdonalds kitchen at peak times?!) and I did mine at a chauffeur firm, doing car and grounds maintenance and repairs. All signed off, but a yard full of up to 500 cars, many of them on the move at a given moment, and general hazards of working on cars, yet a theatre is somehow worse?!

[the kid]

I have heard theatres because of the nudity chance, quick changes, wardrobe work etc etc, and general theatrics where an actor is naked on stage.

[kerry davies]

Yes, Mike. It came about when I was sitting in the offices at Coventry City Council and mentioned a case back home in Wales where a school bus driver had been involved in a fatal accident whilst being "un-licensed".

 

It shook me to learn that we have no research in the UK but in the US the research indicates that one driver out of five involved in fatalities is not licensed for the vehicle they are driving. New research confirms this.

 

I think, but don't know, that the work experience problem is not about safety but licensed premises as a whole. Like Tom I feel that they implement blanket rules because the law is not clear on under 18s at any licensed premises from theatre to circus, disco to abattoir. PSNI asked for legal advice on allowing under 18 discos in pub function rooms where the bar was totally non-alcoholic. The answer came back a definite; "Dunno." Unless and until someone takes it right through the system to the supreme court then Local Authorities are safer to "just say no."

[weedkiller]

PSNI asked for legal advice on allowing under 18 discos in pub function rooms where the bar was totally non-alcoholic. The answer came back a definite; "Dunno."

 

Do you have a source for that, please, Kerry? As I have been struggling all year trying to run these very events and would appreciate any information at official level. Police Service Northern Ireland (PSNI) have closed events in some areas while allowing identical models to operate a few miles away.

[Junior8]

Interesting thread. As it happens I was in at the birth of secondary school work experience and saw several schemes rolled out and then rolled quickly back in again as the legal implications were recognized. My personal view, at the start, was that it was prima facie illegal as the law stood at the time (I am talking early mid eighties here) and that this was at best being finessed by saying that participants had to be in their sixteenth year rather than being sixteen. Since then various Education Acts have been amended of course to, so say, permit such schemes but what has always worried me is that the Education Department (I have no idea, nor care, what it is called at the moment) invariably only issue non-statutory guidance. However the last time I looked at this (admittedly five or six years ago) there was afaic remember no blanket exemption for prohibited premises. There was a sort of 'approved programme of work' get-out from the 1920 Act restrictions but that had to approved by the local EWO. But even if there was I think I'd be chary of using it if I was in control of such premises - and not only for the student case study quoted by Paul (but note that story well. I've been there too.). As for such premises - these restrictions have a very long pedigree no matter what date is on them now!

[kerry davies]

Do you have a source for that, please, Kerry? As I have been struggling all year trying to run these very events and would appreciate any information at official level. Police Service Northern Ireland (PSNI) have closed events in some areas while allowing identical models to operate a few miles away.

It was on the website of a NI licensing solicitors, can't remember exactly which one. Some persons in authority will turn a blind eye, some will be a mite "jobsworth" and I can see all sides of the problem.

 

Just as Junior8 says nobody, police, local authority or education authorities, wants to be the one to launch what could be a case right up to Supreme Court level and set down the statutory guidance which could solve all problems. The potential costs are scary.

 

We may have missed an opportunity to change things because the "Licensing Act Rebalancing" Consultation has closed. There is a possibility that the extension of local powers to police on the ground could work in favour of less restrictions but we have to wait and see.

[paulears]

Even with a children's license the subject is quite trick. If a child is working, then finishes, but opts to remain, with of course their parents (think collecting kids at the advertised and agreed time) - then my view is that they've ceased to be working, and are no longer under my control - so this time is 'their own'. Parents can disagree and consider this as eating up the hours, and the poor council have no idea. Is work considered as being present, or being actually called? If a child comes to the venue early, is this 'work time'. Very difficult stuff really.

 

I have actually found an example of the actual bylaw for one authority.

 

link here

[kerry davies]

Where it is really tricky is "in loco parentis" in that while they are under your supervision you are regarded, in law, as "the parent". Once the actual parents are present you are relieved of that responsibility. What you do about "hours" then is up to you but I used to do an informal "all yours now" handover.

 

I have never been in the work experience situation but working in community events with thousands of children I was always aware of the added responsibilities that young people bring. For anyone even thinking of taking on work experience kids then read Section 560 of the 1996 Education Act and try to make sense of it.

My link

[lightsource]

Must admit, I find this topic hilarious.

 

In the early 80's I was a pyro tech' aged about 15.

 

Worked with bands including John McCoy (Ex Ian Gillan) as a 15 year old.......

 

This was a part of the show, although I had nothing to do with this one::

 

 

 

Ignore the councils, we;'ve never had a problem with that,

[paulears]

Ignore the Councils?

 

Much as I admire the idea, nowadays, any dealing with under 16s labels you as a prospective pervert, and is simply too risky for individuals or businesses to contemplate. In panto this year, I've had people sitting outside with a clock running when the show over-ran - and the ten PM deadline for being gone approaching, I've had anonymous complaints to the council over kids working too many hours, and I've even had complaints about kids being undresses where they shouldn't have been. None got me into any bother, because I made sure these things didn't happen - but ignoring the council is just impossible.

 

Why would anyone choose to do things that are not allowed?

[kerry davies]

Lightsource is talking BLA (Before Live Aid) when pterodactyls darkened the skies above Pilton at dawn and dusk.

 

Those days have long gone and the world is a very different place. Thank heavens.

[lightsource]

Lightsource is talking BLA (Before Live Aid) when pterodactyls darkened the skies above Pilton at dawn and dusk.

 

Those days have long gone and the world is a very different place. Thank heavens.

 

What a load of absolute rubbish Kerry.:(

 

The world is what you make it....... and thank heavens for what exactly? That we have kids of today who are smothered in cotton wool, and zero experience of the real world? A claims culture that doesn't care who the victim is, as long as they get their percentage, Councils who makes money for doing nothing, Schools that are in rented buildings and more costly than if purchased, and lastly in an age of technology, a culture where the vast majority of people who are too stipid to use a lot of the products they purchase.

 

We currently live in a world dominated by a lot of stupid people. Their education and lifestyle is mainly the reason for that..

 

I wasn't one of them and have no regrets. My first job was aged about 12 when I did SFX for The Ghost Train. Technically what is wrong with that?

 

And, considering the number of stage collapses over the last few years and the reasons for them, might reinforce that! As someone in retirement, the comment 'Grow Up' springs to mind, don't mean that in a bad way, but you really are in the Dark ages Kerry, and those large winged Dinosaurs are actually flying over your head, not mine!

 

 

 

Lightsource is talking BLA (Before Live Aid) when pterodactyls darkened the skies above Pilton at dawn and dusk.

 

Those days have long gone and the world is a very different place. Thank heavens.

 

What a load of absolute rubbish Kerry.:(

 

The world is what you make it....... and thank heavens for what exactly? That we have kids of today who are smothered in cotton wool, and zero experience of the real world? A claims culture that doesn't care who the victim is, as long as they get their percentage, Councils who makes money for doing nothing, Schools that are in rented buildings and more costly than if purchased, and lastly in an age of technology, a culture where the vast majority of people who are too stipid to use a lot of the products they purchase.

 

We currently live in a world dominated by a lot of stupid people. Their education and lifestyle is mainly the reason for that..

 

I wasn't one of them and have no regrets. My first job was aged about 12 when I did SFX for The Ghost Train. Technically what is wrong with that?

 

A lot of laws are created by stupid people, then a lot of ignorant people try to enforce them.

 

Look no further than the perception of PAT Testing.

 

Ignore the Councils?

 

Much as I admire the idea, nowadays, any dealing with under 16s labels you as a prospective pervert, and is simply too risky for individuals or businesses to contemplate. In panto this year, I've had people sitting outside with a clock running when the show over-ran - and the ten PM deadline for being gone approaching, I've had anonymous complaints to the council over kids working too many hours, and I've even had complaints about kids being undresses where they shouldn't have been. None got me into any bother, because I made sure these things didn't happen - but ignoring the council is just impossible.

 

Why would anyone choose to do things that are not allowed?

 

We work with a lot of Councils in The North East, as well as AAP's etc.... Never had a problem with one of them. We do our show as is, weather kids, pyro's or whatever. Sounds like you have a Councillor, or someone who needs a polite, or not so polite slap.

 

Just to add.......Not allowed? Define

[paulears]

Not allowed definition. It is illegal for any under 16 to work in a theatre without a license.