Rope - what type

[numberwrong]

Hiya

 

I want to buy a rope for hauling lights, picking cables before they're deaded off and alike.

 

I'm a lighting tech and don't do any rope access rigging stuff but I'm interested in it and can imagine in a few years I may require a rope for supporting myself not just a moving head.

 

What kind, thickness and length should I get with my future skills ambitions in mind? any advise or links to relevant ropey info appreciated!

Thanks

[jonathanhill]

Buy two lines. One static for hauling, one dynamic for climbing. Don't mix the two.

 

I would get a chunky line, say 13-16mm and at least one decent pulley, preferably two to make purchase arrangements for hauling the heavy movers.

 

A dynamic line, around 10mm, would be good for climbing.

[RiggerPhil]

Hi There

The best thing to do is to buy two lines one for hauling and the other for your work line. Having two lines I feel is safer as your hauling line gets a lot more abuse, your hauling line should be static and be 13mm upwards but be careful not to go to big as this can get tricky tying round small things. Your work line also needs to be a static line because you should be using it in conjunction with fall arrest equipment which will not work (or not within manufactures specs) with a Dynamic rope, this is because a Dynamic rope has built in elasticty for use in the leisure environment.

On the last note make sure all equipment meets current reg for use in the work place. For example a normal climbing pulley normal has no SWL stamped on it.

[numberwrong]

13 - 16mm seams quite chunky? I think the ropes I've used before for hauling were 11mm. Why does a hauling line need to be so thick?

 

Do I need a semi static or something 'low stretch' like This ?

 

 

 

 

 

[jonathanhill]

The thicker the line, the kinder it is to your hands. The line needs to be static so it does not stretch, therefore reducing in diameter, and then acting like a garrotte on your hands.

[trussmonkey]

14 - 16mm is pretty standard for hauling line (ask arena riggers) but that depends what you are hauling. You might just need a 11mm semi static line for moving lights and the like. while you are at it factor in a decent pulley that will work with your rope diameter. If you are looking for a ratchet pulley then Harken do the Ratchamatic but it is expensive. There are a few options for hauling lines. Stay away from polyprop it will eat your hands. Generally the thicker the better on your hands and easier to grip. A fluffy rope is also kinder to the hands. Talk to a couple of the rigging companies (UK Rigging/Nippy Industries/Unusual Rigging) they should be able to point you in the right direction.

 

For rope access you should be using a semi static line as your main 'on rope' lines (main line and backup line) and dynamic only for the cowstails (see IRATA guidelines).

[kerry davies]

I am surprised nobody has suggested doing a basic rigging course and asking the instructor what ropes are recommended. After all having a selection of ropes and stuff is not much use if the guy on the end of them doesn't know what he is doing.

 

In fact might it not be a tad hazardous considering the OP has ambitions to progress to rope access rigging? :unsure:

 

Firm believer in getting it right before it has too much chance to go wrong. Unlearning bad habits is the hardest thing to do in life.

[numberwrong]

I am surprised nobody has suggested doing a basic rigging course and asking the instructor what ropes are recommended.

 

Rigging course? Pah! I can gain all the skills necessary for flinging myself out of an arena roof by taking the advise of anonymous randoms on Blueroom http://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif

 

Thanks for comments and advise so far btw

 

 

[jonathanhill]

I am surprised nobody has suggested doing a basic rigging course and asking the instructor what ropes are recommended.

 

A rigging course would be fairly pointless for climbing. An IRATA rope access course would be better suited.

[Seano]

I'm a lighting tech and don't do any rope access rigging stuff but I'm interested in it and can imagine in a few years I may require a rope for supporting myself not just a moving head.

 

People often conflate roped access and rigging, but they're two quite different things.

Riggers rarely get involved in any roped access type shenanigans (and even more rarely in any lead-climbing type shenanigans which would require an otherwise useless dynamic rope).

Newbie roped access technicians (for whom there is *no* work in our industry) do not supply their own ropes. Nor, usually, their own PPE.

If you do find you need a rope to dangle yourself on in a few years time, it shouldn't be an old one that you've had kicking about for a while and used for other things so no point buying one now to use for other things with that in mind.

 

13 - 16mm seams quite chunky? I think the ropes I've used before for hauling were 11mm. Why does a hauling line need to be so thick?

 

Fatter, fluffier lines are nicer for regular routine (esp hand-over-hand) hauling of heavy-ish things to high-ish places (ie: bread and butter work for arena riggers).

For your purposes it probably doesn't need to be so thick. 11mm is fine for swapping the odd fixture on a truss or up the side of a theatre prosc.

 

Do I need a semi static or something 'low stretch' like This ?

 

8mm is probably not thick enough, but something similar but a mite thicker might be very nice as a handling line - matt braided yachting lines can be very pleasant to handle.

 

"Semi-static" and "Low Stretch Kernmantle" are the same thing - ropes designed for abseil/ascent/roped-access type malarky, and tested to EN-1891 type A (you don't want a type B rope). An 11mm could also be a good option - it's relatively cheap and readily available by the meter.

 

My first post here was on a topic very like this one. Good grief, 8 years ago. Little has changed: clicky

Here's another old thread: clicky

 

A rigging course would be fairly pointless for climbing. An IRATA rope access course would be...

...equally pointless for (lead) climbing, a technique very rarely used in any workplace outside the "outdoor leisure" industry.

[top-cat]

My first post here was on a topic very like this one. Good grief, 8 years ago. Little has changed: clicky

Here's another old thread: clicky

 

To quote...

 

ps: If you attempt to use a Shunt as a lowering device, as recommended earlier, you may find yourself pondering the wisdom of accepting the advice of strangers offered on t'internet.

 

 

Just thought I'd say, that made me chuckle! Definite potential for a bit of discomfort for both the user and anybody stood nearby. (Why is it that running your rope over the beam is so out of fashion?!)

 

Frankly there's a lot of mis-matching info on this thread and, unusually, there is actually really right and wrong answers.

 

Dynamic Rope is stretchy, Static or Semi-static, isn't. Hence, the ONLY purpose for dynamic rope, is sport.

 

Sport climbers generally use: 10mm DYNAMIC rope - Kernmantle is a popular material, but in a dynamic rope this is 'stretchy' stuff. Basically falling off is all part of the fun as a sport climber, and if you went through a fall arrest device every time you fell off, a 3 hour session at the local wall would be a darned expensive evening out! So the stretch in the rope, added to the fact that your belayer will take half a second to get the rope to a stop, acts as your fall arrest. And the fact that you're a nice young robust fit climber takes the rest. But it's sod all use for hauling, because it stretches. You put a mover on the end of a dynamic rope, your first 2 foot of hauling all you'll be doing is stretching the rope!

 

Industrial Rope Access Technicians generally use: (I am one so I hope I can speak with some experience!) We use 11mm static or semi-static ropes. Beal Intervention is very popular line. (10.5?). For proper industrial rope access, like Oil Rigs, Offshore Windfarms etc... Seano is bang on. You don't even supply it. The company you work for supplies it, and is responsible for replacing it when it becomes unusable. (And they are more than aware that the cost of replacing a rope is far less than the cost of plucking somebody out the north sea with severe hypothermia). Beyond that, as a rope access technician you need 3 ropes anyway. One is your working line, you then have a safety line, and a spare line. The spare line is used when transferring either your working or safety line to another line - such as when traversing along the side of a building; so that you always have 2 lines attaching you to the structure.

 

And as he says, rope access in entertainment rigging is rare, and mostly never. There was a fair bit going on with Unusual / Stage One at a certain sporting event last year because you couldn't drive cherry pickers on the roof. If anything, the main application for rope access in the entertainment industry is rescue. Anyway, as for the rope itself. It's solid. And if you were to fall on it, minus fall arrest, you would feel it. However, it is more 'energy efficient' you could say, the amount of work you put in is a lot closer to what you get out than with dynamic. The other issue with dynamic in industrial rope access is that your fall protection may not get the necessary acceleration to activate. Things like ASAPs (which are similar, in working, to retractable fall arrester blocks) bascially stick their teeth into the rope when a great enough acceleration on the rope is detected. So when you use a dynamic rope, and fall; because the rope stretches, the ASAP can move with you, without actually moving on the rope, because the rope moves. As a result, you may not move enough, on the rope, to activate the device, and you may fall a greater distance before it kicks in. The additional fall distance means a greater force on your body when you do stop. And indeed, a greater chance of hitting the floor / hanging trusses from height, before you stop. IRATA did a series of videos of ASAPs vs Shunts when you fall off, and you'll notice there is a fall, and a pretty violent stop, induced even with an ASAP on a static rope.

 

The rule of thumb when using fall arrest equipment is to only use one device in your chain. Because the energy absorbed by any one of those devices may be sufficient to stop another of the devices from even realising you've fallen. Dynamic rope essentially acts as a fall arrester (it's designed to!) so using it in a chain with any other fall arrest equipment (as you will, in industrial rope access) is a no no.

 

Hauling Riggers generally use: 13-16mm static. Yes it sounds big but riggers like that. It's more comfortable to use, and significantly easier to undo a tight knot in. Soft rope is also nice because a bowline will sit in soft rope very well without even being tightened, whereas with much harder rope-access ropes, they generally have to be tightened up to hold well. Soft rope also gets more friction over beams - which is the traditional - and best - way to slow things down when you're sending them in. It's not designed for rope access and thus shouldn't be used as such. Besides, the ropes are generally too wide to fit through rope access descenders anyway. I have ab'd down my hauling line in the past (a 16mm) using a Fig-8 and it is an extremely slow and tedious descent! And largely unadvisable since hauling lines tend to get so much abuse.

 

 

 

So the point here is that you have 3 different purposes with 3 different products and you cannot expect to mix them.

 

As for which course to take, just decide what you actually want to do in life. An IRATA accredited rope access course will cost you a thousand quid and unless you actually clock up the hours under supervision over the following 5 years, it expires and becomes worth naff all anyway. My advice on doing Rope Access courses is don't even bother, unless you actually have a rope-access employer telling you he'll employ you once you've got it. That's when I did mine. The other guys on my course were looking for jobs, I've got 2 of them on Facebook, and both are still looking for their first gigs, despite the fact that our certificates are half-way to expiring.

 

What to buy then? For hauling movers, an 11mm and a Petzl Pro Traxion will give you no real grief. A double purchase pulley system will be as much use as a chocolate fire guard so don't bother trying that.

[mark_s]

Kernmantle is a popular material, but in a dynamic rope this is 'stretchy' stuff.

 

Just to clarify, kernmantle isn't a material but a method of rope construction referring to the rope having a core surrounded by a woven protective sheath. Ropes used in climbing (both the dynamic and static varieties) are made of nylon using this sort of construction (as is accessory cord, although you can also get Dyneema cord).

 

As for rope choice, just be aware that 11mm static (or semi-static, or whatever term you want to use) 'climbing rope' is particularly stiff until fairly well-used, and as a result can be a complete pain to handle. If I was buying a haul line, it wouldn't be my first choice. It is, however, relatively cheap and available per-metre as Seano mentions, often from caving suppliers.

[top-cat]

Just to clarify, kernmantle isn't a material but a method of rope construction referring to the rope having a core surrounded by a woven protective sheath. Ropes used in climbing (both the dynamic and static varieties) are made of nylon using this sort of construction (as is accessory cord, although you can also get Dyneema cord).

 

Sorry, badly explained (on my part). You can actually get dyneema ropes in 10-11mm now, the main audience for which is sailing boats because of it is very low stretch and has a similar load rating as steel wire rope yet is a lot more flexible. Unfortunately it's too expensive for many other uses, for a 100m reel of 10mm you are looking at between £500-700! (Whereas something like Intervention comes in around £150-200, and similarly rated SWR comes in at £100-150).

 

As for rope choice, just be aware that 11mm static (or semi-static, or whatever term you want to use) 'climbing rope' is particularly stiff until fairly well-used, and as a result can be a complete pain to handle. If I was buying a haul line, it wouldn't be my first choice. It is, however, relatively cheap and available per-metre as Seano mentions, often from caving suppliers.

 

To clarify, when under my 'hauling lines' section I said about bigger rigging ropes being soft, that's what I was getting at. 11mm static is very 'hard' and as a ground rigger there is nothing worse than when you receive a 2 ton point from a high roof on a rigger's brand new 10-11mm static. Because you'll probably tear your fingernails off trying to get the knot out. Putting it in the bath for a day then drying it on the washing line is recommended with ne ropes, it shrinks them and also makes them a bit easier to handle, yet a lot of people have never heard of it and thus don't do it.

 

11mm would not be my choice as a hauling line either, mine is a 16mm multi-filiament rope as in http://ukrigging.net...2&product_id=97 - really popular at the moment with riggers. However, it is not a multi-purpose rope as you couldn't abseil on it, it's too fat. Hence if you are doing a bit of hauling and a bit of abseiling, 11mm is probably the better 'hybrid'. I would get an 11mm static with an eye installed in one end (basically they splice an eye in one end of the rope and put like a plastic guard over it.. . if you have a Grillon work positioner you will know what I mean) then for hauling movers you can chuck a carabiner in it and clip into the fixture. Much easier than trying to explain to a local from 30 foot above them how to tie knots.... which face it, everyone has at least tried to do at some point!

 

 

As a wider point, yes it can be difficult to choose a rope because there's not much guidance on it. I know plenty of technicians who have unused items of PPE because they just bought the whole lot, or have spent lots of money on something that could have been done better, for cheaper. So asking is absolutely the right thing to do. Yet it always comes back to "do the training and you will learn what to buy". Which, whilst true... could get very expensive. It's a tool, as any other. And unfortunately as with all tools you sometimes have to buy 2 or 3 before you find one that works for you.