Sound Levels

[Gerry Faurie]

Hi

Doing a small install in a local pub - they have asked for background music over 2 zones and the facility to have a band / live mix into zone 1 only ( room size is approx 25ft x 25ft), with this in mind I am going to install a limiter in the path of the zone 1 amplifier - the question is, what is the limit in dbs for me to set up to?? - the limiter can be set up so that it does not start clipping the amplifier - but it is very load -- is their a standard measurement not to exceed?? - spoken to the council about this and they said they would pop over and set there own level and seal my limiter -- just want to be aware of limits before hand

 

equipment being used

 

cloud 3 zone mixer

Zone 1 equipment:

talks limiter -

crown 250 watt amp

bose speakers

 

many thanks

Gerry -- video boy!

[chelgrian]

clipping the amplifier - but it is very load -- is their a standard measurement not to exceed?? - spoken to the council about this and they said they would pop over and set there own level and seal my limiter -- just want to be aware of limits before hand

 

This is a complicated area, there are recommendations for exposure for people working at the venue. So the layout, if there is any acoustic screening if there are other areas with lower levels staff or punters can escape to and dozens of other factors are relevant.

 

Having the council just come round a set a limit is probably going to result in something quite low.

[kerry davies]

Bit of an impossible question, Gerry.

Noise is a subjective thing and individual EHO's make entirely individual decisions. If the venue is completely soundproof then volume levels inside could be gut-wrenching while leaky old pubs with doors opening and closing on the noise could mean levels more akin to your living room being complained about.

 

You really need to co-ordinate your approach with the local EHO personally. There are far too many variables to set dB levels as a "norm".

[Jivemaster]

Limiters are BAD. Basically if a venue needs a limiter then it isn't suitable for holding events with sound. A participating crowd can make 100dB of acoustic noise which then powers things down or mutes the powered sound.

 

I went to work at one very expensive venue to be told that the sound limit was 85dB (many a cocktail bar will reach 95db with natural chatter! The real reason for this was that the (then) action figure that brought in noise exposure controls was 85dB. Trying to get a wedding band and disco to work at below 85dB was hard and it was a total failure because the guests kept saying "turn it up, we can't dance to this" IIRC that limit has been changed downward now possibly to 82 or 83dB.

 

Your considerations should be that the neighbours are not disturbed (that's a loss of licence event) and that the staff in the room have noise dose calculations estimated properly for the whole week, Out of noise breaks need to be planned, acoustic isolation for the bar areas needs to be planned.

 

A bad case example is a wedding first dance Someone calls "three chears for Mr and Mrs..." and on the firs cheer all the sound goes dead and then when it comes back all the computers need time to reboot -the atmosphere is gone the party is spoiled.

 

From my experience a party in a venue or bar starts at 85dB and builds to 100dB. It's certainly better to install air con than open the windows! Reality is that people will go to loud places, if yours isn't loud people will not go there.

[paulears]

25 x 25 feet????

 

The best you can have will be an acoustic duo. Asking the council was perhaps a mistake. What level will they pick and set as maximum? Probably something unworkable. A limiter is also going to simply control maximum level with o consideration of spectral energy, so somebody with one of the very common cahons would engage the limiter when it's not even loud. Once a council limit has been set, you're unlikely to get it changed. There is a warners holiday centre near me where the audience cheering the bingo winner is loud enough to trip the protection device. If the venue is unsuitable, that's pretty well it.

[Jivemaster]

The Council's attitude could well be "turn it up til we can hear it outside they back it off a bit and lock it there" Which will likely be somewhere between 80 and 95dB.

[Electrolytic]

Limiters are BAD. Basically if a venue needs a limiter then it isn't suitable for holding events with sound. A participating crowd can make 100dB of acoustic noise which then powers things down or mutes the powered sound.

 

I went to work at one very expensive venue to be told that the sound limit was 85dB (many a cocktail bar will reach 95db with natural chatter! The real reason for this was that the (then) action figure that brought in noise exposure controls was 85dB. Trying to get a wedding band and disco to work at below 85dB was hard and it was a total failure because the guests kept saying "turn it up, we can't dance to this" IIRC that limit has been changed downward now possibly to 82 or 83dB.

 

Your considerations should be that the neighbours are not disturbed (that's a loss of licence event) and that the staff in the room have noise dose calculations estimated properly for the whole week, Out of noise breaks need to be planned, acoustic isolation for the bar areas needs to be planned.

 

A bad case example is a wedding first dance Someone calls "three chears for Mr and Mrs..." and on the firs cheer all the sound goes dead and then when it comes back all the computers need time to reboot -the atmosphere is gone the party is spoiled.

 

From my experience a party in a venue or bar starts at 85dB and builds to 100dB. It's certainly better to install air con than open the windows! Reality is that people will go to loud places, if yours isn't loud people will not go there.

 

The 85dBA is the threshold at which employers must enforce hearing protection for their employees but that is over an 8hour period/ typical working day. With staff rotation to different bars their exposure dose would be less.

There is no legislation to protect the public, that's their choice/responsibility. The 85dBA breaker seems overkill in that venue rendering it unfit for purpose, some SNR-5dBA 'foamies' for all staff would satisfy HSE.

 

extension lead

[crazyshaun]

A local pub near me when enquired about live music sound level was told

 

80 dB for 8 hours

83 dB for 4 hours

86 dB for 2 hours

89 dB for 1 hour

92 dB for 30 minute

[MarkPAman]

A local pub near me when enquired about live music sound level was told

 

80 dB for 8 hours

83 dB for 4 hours

86 dB for 2 hours

89 dB for 1 hour

92 dB for 30 minute

 

This is referencing to the lowest action value:

 

The lower exposure action value is a daily or weekly average noise exposure level of 80 dB, at which the employer has to provide information and training and make hearing protection available.

 

It's may affect the way in which staff work, but has little direct relevance to question.

[Jivemaster]

The issue is that if a venue wants to hold birthday parties and wedding receptions with band or disco then imposing the weekly dose limit for noise will be counter productive. Venues NEED to get a good understanding of the noise regs both in terms of noise nuisance and noise at work exposure and dose.

 

A sound limiter will be as popular as the smoking ban was.

 

The problem will happen when a bride books a wedding reception with disco and the venue accepts the booking but prevents the disco happening. Expect to get sued out of business and black balled on all the "Bride" and "Wedding" forums where brides go to find all the best ways of getting some money off later.

 

Yes I also know a bar chain where the staff complain of deafness at 24yeas old, they are in the loud bar for 3+ whole evenings a week! That's 24hours at 100+dB. If ever an audiologist gets HSE involved it will be curtains for the organisation, what is the good of compensation if you have lost your hearing by the age of 25????