Visual install

[Thomaswgrey]

Hello readers,

I am currently seeking (as an audio guy) advice on installing an av system in our church. We are intending to do it ourselfs after receiving excessive quotes (£12,000). Basically the system needs to have 3 'off the shelf' tv screens, all portable but moved to the same positions each time, a connection to a laptop and for future expansion needs to be able to plug into a Rolland video mixer. We are looking at two 32 ich screens and one aprox 40 inch screen. I am needing advice about cabling that will work with both a laptop and a video mixer and any other suggestions. Maximum. Cable run to screen will be aprox 30M.

Thanks Tom :)

[timsabre]

This is not a simple thing to do, and there are lots of variables... "off the shelf" TV screens generally only have HDMI or composite video/SCART inputs. 30m is too far for HDMI and composite video might look a bit fuzzy depending on what content you are showing. What outputs does your video mixer have? What outputs does your laptop have? Are you going to run the laptop through the video mixer?

[alistermorton]

If you need HDMI, then for that distance It might not be as simple and straight you're going to need some sort of extender - I'd take a look at the Kramer range, as a start. If you're splitting the signal to three screens then you'll need some way to distribute the signal properly.

 

It might not be quite so simple and straightforward as it first appears.

[Thomaswgrey]

As a video mixer we where looking at the Roland V-4EX as everyone seems to use the Roland mixers in our area. and yes the laptop would have hdmi out. Would HDMI over cat5/6 do the trick?

This is not a simple thing to do, and there are lots of variables... "off the shelf" TV screens generally only have HDMI or composite video/SCART inputs. 30m is too far for HDMI and composite video might look a bit fuzzy depending on what content you are showing. What outputs does your video mixer have? What outputs does your laptop have? Are you going to run the laptop through the video mixer?

[AHYoung]

im sure its been said many times, but an off the shelf tv isn't a great choice for an instal for so many reasons and id also suggest that these days32 and 40" will look tiny, and you might want to look at a bit larger. If you want a commercial display, there are a whole range of units now available vying for the lo end market that would normally go to argos, so there isn't that great a price premium anymore.

 

 

The roland mixer is sort of an edirol v4 with hdmis on and the thing works at a pretty low res internally so dont expect that you graphics will look particularly sharp, That's not to say its not a good choice, but just be aware that its a long way short of Hd. Id suggest that a hdmi over catX solution would be a good choice, but don't underestimate how much it will cost to do properly...

[timsabre]

As a video mixer we where looking at the Roland V-4EX as everyone seems to use the Roland mixers in our area. and yes the laptop would have hdmi out. Would HDMI over cat5/6 do the trick?

 

If you are running SD resolution you might manage HDMI over 30m using a good quality cable. It seems to be a bit unpredictable whether it will work or not. Obviously you will also need a splitter to feed your 3 tv's.

[Thomaswgrey]

Hi,The church is a village church (so not too big) we borrowed a 32" screen and set it up in the positions we would have the screens in and agreed that everything was compftably readable (even got somone with poor eyesight) and only in a 4:3 ratio as well. As far as screens go what would you recommend as a professional choice? And what video mixer? (bearing in mind price)

Thanks Tom :)

1376689182[/url]' post='480018']

im sure its been said many times, but an off the shelf tv isn't a great choice for an instal for so many reasons and id also suggest that these days32 and 40" will look tiny, and you might want to look at a bit larger. If you want a commercial display, there are a whole range of units now available vying for the lo end market that would normally go to argos, so there isn't that great a price premium anymore.

 

 

The roland mixer is sort of an edirol v4 with hdmis on and the thing works at a pretty low res internally so dont expect that you graphics will look particularly sharp, That's not to say its not a good choice, but just be aware that its a long way short of Hd. Id suggest that a hdmi over catX solution would be a good choice, but don't underestimate how much it will cost to do properly...

[Pete McCrea]

Consumer TV's are not generally not covered for commercial use under the warranty. You might have issues if you did attempt a warranty repair of a consumer panel, and the repair agent decided that the panel had been used in a non domestic setting through interrogating the hours log of the display. My wife had one such situation with a consumer panel purchased in the Waitrose Food and Home she works in.

 

As other have said, HDMI can be problematical once you head into HD ranges, and over 5m. It was designed as a consumer interface between your DVD and TV centimetres apart.

 

Part of the reason that companies charge 'excessive' prices, is that they have to know how to create a system that will work, and over come all these issues. This take time and learning, something that has to be recovered through making profit on the sales of the hardware and installation. They will also need to be covered by the relevant insurance policies, again costing money.

 

As others have noted, depending on what equipment you requested, you might find that actually you've had very competitive prices - it's just that you asked for a car, and they quoted you and Aston Martin, whereas a Ford Ka would be perfectly adequate and cost far less. To ensure you're getting measureable quotes, you need to specify what you require, and get the contractors to quote against this. Then you can see what price each contractor is charging, and see who offers the best value.

[Thomaswgrey]

Hi, so what would you suggest as screens and the cables?

1376694416[/url]' post='480022']

Consumer TV's are not generally not covered for commercial use under the warranty. You might have issues if you did attempt a warranty repair of a consumer panel, and the repair agent decided that the panel had been used in a non domestic setting through interrogating the hours log of the display. My wife had one such situation with a consumer panel purchased in the Waitrose Food and Home she works in.

 

As other have said, HDMI can be problematical once you head into HD ranges, and over 5m. It was designed as a consumer interface between your DVD and TV centimetres apart.

 

Part of the reason that companies charge 'excessive' prices, is that they have to know how to create a system that will work, and over come all these issues. This take time and learning, something that has to be recovered through making profit on the sales of the hardware and installation. They will also need to be covered by the relevant insurance policies, again costing money.

 

As others have noted, depending on what equipment you requested, you might find that actually you've had very competitive prices - it's just that you asked for a car, and they quoted you and Aston Martin, whereas a Ford Ka would be perfectly adequate and cost far less. To ensure you're getting measureable quotes, you need to specify what you require, and get the contractors to quote against this. Then you can see what price each contractor is charging, and see who offers the best value.

[paulears]

You need to produce a proper requirements list. So many variables from what you've said. 4:3 is a strange choice now when 16:9 cameras, recorders and display equipment in HD are very common. If your choice of 4:3 is because one item of kit you intend using is this format, it seems to be a very limiting factor. Many domestic TVs also need a remote control to turn them on, or select the video input - scart had an auto switch facility, but again, needs checking, and is rarely in domestic manuals or specs. You can't compare very dissimilar specs. If this is a village church, you'll also have the dreadful task of supplying power and video. If they're up high, then you'll need distributed power that has a switch, otherwise, steps and lots of faffing about. The twelve grand could be very good value if it covers all these things, or could be expensive if it's just a supply in boxes solution.

[Pete McCrea]

Google "Commercial LFD". Cable wise you'll need to work out your cable type, and run, then whether you need to look into using CAT or Fibre options to achieve the distance you need.

 

You also need to look at trying to design your signal path and consider the formats you're ingesting, and how to process these, transmit them and display them. if you've got mixed formats, then you need a plan for scaling them to to a common resolution, or switching the displays to the other inputs.

 

I'm not going to design the system for you (thats how my business makes money, that I need to pay my employees and my mortgage :-) ) but help point you in the right direction so you can start to get your head round the complexities of installing video systems.

[djw1981]

Also, and I am not advocating poor quality visuals, but do you NEED HD? My church runs on VGA for the pragmatic balance between the majority of our sources being computer based, with little / no live video and the cost of distribution being affordable.

[the kid]

Hang on, the vision mix (assuming the v-4ex) is VGA/BNC/HDMI out, input is HDMI/BNC, with ONE VGA.

 

Unless I am missing something you have not mentioned what the input/s are but there is no issue with having a HDMI laptop in to the mixer and BNC out which then via a passive or active splitter you send to you x# tv's.

 

In terms of actual screens .. not a clue, stands - as ever for something robust and changeable and bomb proof you will want unicol, yes they cost but they will never break.

[Yorkie]

To make installations discreet, compliant and guaranteed to meet the customer's specification can cost more than you think. Anyone specifying a system needs to know basics, and part of an installers time (and therefore money) is taken up turning churches request into a robust spec.

 

Information you will need to provide or pay them to tease out of you are:

Input formats and aspect ratio

Outputs required

Is there power at the places you want to put screens?

Screens are to be portable but what about the cabling?

Distances involved

etc...

 

The brand of vision mixer may be irrelevant, the type of inputs/outputs you want to use on it is far more important.

[Matt Riley]

I've been putting some thought into some similar video systems recently to serve our smaller venues. The Roland kit is great but I know for our (very different needs) the VJ mixer format was a bit limiting. Instead perhaps think about either the Kramer VP728 or the VP770/771 depending on the functionality you need as it's also a bit less intimidating to volunteers.

 

In terms of distribution I would first try using these and see if they work - I haven't but would be intrigued to know if they're any good for the job.

 

For a cheap floor stand, perhaps evaluate these.

 

If they don't work (and there's every chance they might not) then you could look at the Kramer DG-Kat stuff (though it's quite pricey) or you could use the HD-SDI out of the Kramer 771 alongside a suitably robust HD-SDI splitter and Blackmagic or Kramer HD-SDI to HDMI adapters.

 

Hopefully there's some food for thought though?