Boundaries instead of radio mics outside?

[ddproduction]

We're doing Midsummer Night's Dream in the summer, in the grounds of an old manor house. The stage area consists of a raised covered 'flowerbed' attached to the back of the house, approx 20x2m. LX tower and tech desk is approx 25m away, central to stage.

 

We initially planned to use radio mics throughout, and potentially some rifles for static ensemble pieces. We'd have direct line-of-site for the recievers.

However, our director and producer have decided that it would be much better to just use boundaries instead, and ensure all cast can voice project very well. They are also concerned that because it is an outside show, all the audience will leave their phones on and cause interference with the radio mics (despite my pleas and quoting of A-level physics!).

 

Considering this is outside, potentially windy / rainy, and a cast of am-drammers and children, I have no confidence in using boundaries on their own.

 

We are speaking to our hire co. this week to get an opinion, but does anyone on here have any suggestions, or something reputable I can quote to persuade them otherwise?

 

Please advise me if this is in fact a much better way of doing things and I am actually going mad!! Thanks.

[pete10uk]

1: 25m is nothing for decent radio mics, with sennheiser G3 ch 38 with the paddle aerials I can get over 150m

2: Mobile phones interfering, I've never had it and internal events have just as many phones left on.

3: boundary mics in wind, are just a nightmare, head sets are better but not perfect, best put in your order a wind free event. also boundary mics make loverly rain catches.

4: Try and tell the director and producer how to do their job and then point out that sound is your domain.

 

Good Luck with that one.

[ddproduction]

All my thoughts exactly (And we'd be using Senny G3s too)! IIRC mobiles can't interfere anyway as they're on a different wavelength, and I'm having difficulty convincing them of this (suspect they might be thinking of induced interference in the mic lead if a performer had a phone?).

[MarkPAman]

(suspect they might be thinking of induced interference in the mic lead if a performer had a phone?).

 

If the actors have phones on them, switched on, would that not be a problem whatever mics you have, or even if you have none??? :blink:

[ddproduction]

Well I guessed so but none of our cast would have them with them anyway. Unlike our tech team... :P

[Shez]

Many moons ago I did some outdoor Shakespeare; 1st year was fully radio mic'ed, 2nd and 3rd years had a much lower budget and we went for floats instead.

 

It was workable. The GBF of floats outdoors is extraordinary so there was no problem with getting dialogue up to a good level. If there's a busy road behind your stage, you'll get all of that too of course. You won't however get the reverberant ambience like you would indoors. The vast majority of wind rumble was dispatched with some heavy EQ on the graphic. We had plans for rain (which of course it did). They essentially involved collecting up the mics if the rain got too heavy. That was at a similar point at which the actors also ran for cover - heavy, soggy Shakespearean costumes were not something we wanted.

 

Note also that you need a lot more PA outdoors than you do indoors. What sounds loud inside gets hopelessly lost outside.

[chelgrian]

2: Mobile phones interfering, I've never had it and internal events have just as many phones left on.

 

Ditto the only way I've ever got a mobile phone to interfere with a radio mic is by the phone being physically on top of the mic head itself and the GSM chatter inducing noise which went through the audio path, not interfering with the RF transmission.

 

I have had the same happen at the other end of the chain with a noise boy putting his phone on top the the desk in what turned out to be a critical position and the same GSM chatter being induced directly somewhere in the desk's audio path.

 

Fortunately the inverse square law is our friend and a phone in the noise boy's pocket is usually just too far away from anything to cause a problem.

[mervaka]

Maybe set up a demonstration for them to show just how close the phone needs to be to the transmitter in order to pick up this nasty interference? Doesn't sound like any amount of theory will sway their opinion. Best of luck..

[nawvernmonkee]

I suspect this is a budget driven decision and is unlikely to be reversed until paying customers start to leave because they can't hear anything.

 

That said I agree with shez, it's probably quite do-able, but you could consider some practical, other than technical, issues which might help. None individually will solve your problem but a combination of smaller solutions will go some way to cutting down wind and rain problems.

 

Perhaps take a few cues from the TV & Film industries, i.e. if you are using shotguns as well, consider using a rycote windjammer and furry coat (all hireable I'm sure). The producers may not like this unless you can somehow keep them out of sightlines whilst still being effective, or make a feature out of them.

 

I don't think you can get rycote furry type windjammers for boundary mics, and they might look a bit silly on stage (plus they tend to soak up water a bit) but if the mics are also somehow hidden from the audiences view you could find some screening material, a bit like using tights as a pop shield, to somehow suspend over the boundaries. This would dissipate the rain before it hits the mic and help to do the same with the wind. These suggestions may not be practical for you of course, but perhaps it would prompt some thought into what might be..

 

There is another place full of excellent info, albeit for different situations, that you can visit. these guys are pretty resourceful when it comes to dealing with such matters, and they are very friendly (bar one ;) )

 

http://jwsoundgroup.net/index.php?/topic/7653-high-wind-situations/page__pid__117926#entry117926

 

They make a good point about the wind and using a steep LPF to help eliminate the wind rumble.

 

I remember going to watch an outdoor shakespeare here once and they had terrible problems with rain, luckily it was RSC and the actors were great and projected well, however they used a tarp roof that year and the rain noise on that was very loud and distracting and of course, amplified. Alas, I noticed, their shotguns pointing up towards the actors (and of course the roof). I'm sure the guys made a note of that in hindsight.

 

I know it sounds silly but sometimes lots of little things can make a big difference.

 

Good luck..

[sleah]

Just to chuck something in to the mix.... ;)

 

If you use Line6 digital radio mics, although interference from GSM may not be an issue, interference from wi-fi enabled phones and other devices may be.

When I tried our system, putting my phone close to the receiver rack killed a couple of the channels almost stone dead.

It's unlikely a wifi enabled device just in the same room will be a problem, but I wouldn't risk a show without doing some trials :o

[Shez]

A few weeks back I did a show with my Line6 radio mics where the compère gave out a mobile number to the audience so they could text comments to him during the show that he would read out. He kept his phone in the same pocket as the TX... There was regular GSM blooping due to the phone pretty much being in contact with the mic cable but no RF issues whatsoever. I've also had a wifi access point about 2' away from the receiver rack that didn't cause any problems.

 

Putting an RF transmitter right next to the receiver rack / antennae (even a spare radio mic) is asking for trouble. Following normal precautions, I've never had any RF issues with the Line6 gear.

[david.elsbury]

I'm sure I read somewhere (here?) a while ago that someone had used boundaries outside, and had managed to put fur (the Rycote sort, I believe) over the mic. Apart from the expected loss of HF, it worked to a point.

 

David

[gordontech]

I have only skimmed this topic but we are also assuming you are not using a multicore?

 

 

 

This would be an easy way to convince them that you are eliminating interference without having phantom powered puddles. Pointing at the big cable and say "the way you interfere with that is with a hacksaw!"

 

 

 

 

 

Just my two pence

[ddproduction]

I have only skimmed this topic but we are also assuming you are not using a multicore?

 

Well I would be if we were to use boundaries. Have spoken to our hire co. this weekend and they agree with just using radio mics.

[paulears]

It's very confusing when two members have the same avatar?

 

I'd also say I have had no radio mic issues whatsoever with Line 6, RF wise - and last night, now my memory has been jogged, I was sitting right next to the radio receiver rack, using my iPhone to bring up channels on the lighting control - with the wifi router at the back of the auditorium. I didn't even think of the radios in use, and there was no problem whatsoever.

 

Open air events of this kind I've done for many years and I'd really think hard about radios. At least half of the ones I have done had no microphones whatsoever, and there really was no need. A few had boundaries, and a thin layer of foam over the top reduced the wind noise with a bit of high pass filter to manageable levels - but they were always run very low, because there isn't the need. Shakespeare, in particular is ideal for outside because it was written to be performed in this way. I wonder if the 25m to the mix position is accurate, because that would mean you're expecting an audience of perhaps five or 6 hundred?

 

I really can't see the need for large numbers of radios - it sounds as if the direction has the cast whispering and speaking quietly? If they project - there really is no need for technicality of this kind. A few boundaries, if really necessary and a pair of speakers on sticks - if we are going to much louder and complex systems, it's not Shakespeare as we know it!