Security & Laser Pens

[mrgeeza]

All this talk about laser pointers is making me laugh. :P

 

I was talking to one of the doorman today about them. He said that it's to help other security see where a problem may be occurring. For example... Someone has started a fight, although they are in voice communication it's sometimes difficult to pin point the exact location in a packed out club. So he said they are 'supposed' to shine it in the air to get the attention of other guards. He said they are trying some other methods too, but if your referring to night clubs in Derby Josh, Walkabout and Syn are both trying this method, he said it's having a positive effect on response time. I can see how this method might be abused, but we can't comment until we've been put in a very loud, packed out environment, in the centre of a dance floor trying to breakup a fight without hurting anyone innocent. Maybe we could suggest a zone and sector approach, Each room a zone and each zone split into sectors and the guard just has to give that info over voice coms.

[Bobbsy]

Shining it vertically, maybe. Shining a laser AT a person (in a darkened environment so the iris on the eyes are wide open) as mentioned in the first post, never. And I suspect the average bouncer is not the sort of person who's going to worry about 'elf and safety when there's a flashy toy to play with.

 

I may as well live up to my grumpy old man status. If a venue is so prone to this sort of violence, close the b****y things down. I've made it to nearly 60 now (and visited a lot of pubs and bars!) and have seen fewer fights than I could count on one hand. If there's something about modern clubs that require these sort of storm trooper tactics to keep people from injuring each other, we need to really think about whether we need such places.

 

Well, this IS a forum for rants!

[Simon Lewis]

All this talk about laser pointers is making me laugh. :P

 

I think the benefits of pinpointing those causing trouble or in need of assistance is well understood. Your contact's comments highlight the issue though... "we're supposed to shine it in the air" (emphasis mine). The SIA staff quickly find out that it's easier to highlight someone when pointing at them. From there, it is also easy to use the laser as a 'remote smack on the wrist' or as a deterrent; "I believed he was about to strike me, so I shone my laser in his face, thinking that it would not cause harm".

 

Then there is the issue of power. The medical evidence suggests that whilst 1mW may cause temporary discomfort, it will not cause damage.1mW seems to be the UK limit for "laser pointers" but 2 seconds on the web reveals many UK based suppliers selling "laser pointers" orders of magnitude more powerful. Many of these sites promote a more powerful is better sales tactic. Add in the fact that some devices may not be built to the stated specification or may (allegedly) be able to have filters removed to change the output, then there is the possibility of devices that can cause damage being used.

 

Then there is the issue of Monkey See, Monkey Do. Shine a laser at a plane, helicopter, train or car and you are likely to be arrested. Some have been jailed. There are cases now of lasers being used to distract players at sporting events. If lasers are used in a club, then expect their use in other situations to increase, or for the clubbers to go equipped with their own lasers (suitably "bright" of course).

 

You could argue that giving door staff an AK47 each would help response times and improve security. Thankfully, that's not logical or legal.

 

There is more to follow up on this issue, including finding out what stance Local Government Regulation (LACORS), SIA and the HSE take, but I have marking to do for the next 9 days, so can't chase this any more for now.

 

Mods - is this still a rant or does it need its own topic?

 

Simon

[Bobbsy]

 

You could argue that giving door staff an AK47 each would help response times and improve security. Thankfully, that's not logical or legal.

 

 

 

** laughs out loud **...I originally made the same point in my previous post (except I gave them 9mm Glocks instead of AK47s) but edited it out at the last minute.

[CharlieH]

** laughs out loud **...I originally made the same point in my previous post (except I gave them 9mm Glocks instead of AK47s) but edited it out at the last minute.

 

The Glocks' probably more practical http://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif

[kerry davies]

mrgeeza, if a fight breaks out then the security has already failed in it's responsibilities for conflict management. Shining lasers to pinpoint fights (criminal assault) is an admission of incompetence and poor management.

 

In outdoor events it is usually security that insist on an alpha-numeric grid so zoning areas of indoor venues should be second nature to them.

 

On class 2 lasers HSE state; "The simple precaution of ensuring that they are never deliberately stared at or shone into people's faces will be sufficient control for any viewing hazard that they present." and also....

"However, HSE is aware of higher power devices being offered for sale in this market (e.g. Class 3B). These should never be used by members of the public and should only be used by trained and competent employers and employees, who will ensure that a laser beam is not directed at people's eyes." So laser pointers, of whatever power, should never be pointed at people.

 

The whole point of this discussion, for me, is that time and again we have management of all sorts in the UK failing in it's primary duties then adopting a sticking plaster solution bringing yet more difficulties into the equation.

 

There is a whole section of SIA training dedicated to conflict management.

http://www.sia.homeoffice.gov.uk/Documents/training/modules/sia_conflict_management_specification.pdf

 

To add; Hechler und Koch modified every time.

[Matthew Robinson]

The medical evidence suggests that whilst 1mW may cause temporary discomfort, it will not cause damage.

 

That was my original point, just to clarify further. Although I did assume that they were using lasers of 1mW or less.

[Simon Lewis]

That was my original point, just to clarify further. Although I did assume that they were using lasers of 1mW or less.

Sadly, given the widespread availability of 3B lasers (there's even an 800mW one - admittedly over £700) one cannot assume that it's 1mW or less.

[Matthew Robinson]

That was my original point, just to clarify further. Although I did assume that they were using lasers of 1mW or less.

Sadly, given the widespread availability of 3B lasers (there's even an 800mW one - admittedly over £700) one cannot assume that it's 1mW or less.

 

I must admit to not knowing that the availability of laser pointers at that power rating, hence my assumption.

[DrummerJonny]

mrgeeza, if a fight breaks out then the security has already failed in it's responsibilities for conflict management.

 

I'm sorry Kerry, but I don't really think that's the case.

 

In a club environment, a conflict can spring from nowhere in seconds. I myself, while working, have previously been assaulted by a customer, after removing his drink from the top of my desk. I'd put it on a shelf behind me so If he'd asked he could have had it back, but his reaction was to turn round from dancing and lamp me one. I couldn't see it coming, the security guy standing behind me at the FOH position couldn't see it coming (but dealt with him swiftly) and, short of barring everyone who looks like they may cause trouble (My town is home to a University and a Barracks,) every incident can't be prevented. Sometimes these things do happen. Trust me, I wish it were possible to have a nice, happy environment where everyone was levelheaded and calm, but a nightclub, where some people obviously have had a few too many, will sometimes fail to be that kind of place.

 

You could argue that barstaff and security's responsibilities include not serving / removing obvious drunks, and they do, but you don't have to have drunk enough to be slurring and unsteady to become hotheaded, if you are of that mindset already.

 

I'll admit I posted this without reading the conflict management documentation posted, but I intend to do so now. Also not trying to open a can of worms either, just putting out a viewpoint of my own.

[Simon Lewis]

...I myself, while working, have previously been assaulted by a customer, after removing his drink from the top of my desk. I'd put it on a shelf behind me so If he'd asked he could have had it back, but his reaction was to turn round from dancing and lamp me one. I couldn't see it coming,

 

I could "see it coming" when you removed the drink! Surely, part of conflict management is to not take actions that give rise to conflict? Get security to show the punter that the drink has been moved, or prevent drinks being put there by using barriers around FOH (if the "desk" refers to a control desk) or make the flat surface sloping etc.?

[Ashley R]

That is exactly why I insist on a barrier around FOH, no matter how small the venue. I find a couple of peices of Road Ready Intellistage (Or Similar staging) Provide an excellent barrier when coupled with a few sand/shot bags, as it leaves a 0.5m barrier around me, and there's no where in this 0.5m area to place drinks.

 

I'd much rather keep my teeth, and not have a black eye due to some hot headed drunk.

 

Mods - I 2nd that maybe this should be split into a separate topic.

[DrummerJonny]

Regardless of whether I was in the right to move this guys pint, my original point still stands. Conflict can spring from nowhere in seconds, it could've been another customer knocking his drink out his hands or anything, this guy would most likely have reacted violently, with no pre-warning. One second dancing happy as anything, next punching me in the face. Trust me when I say we changed quite a few things about the barriers round FOH after the incident though...

[smalljoshua]

To give a bit more information on the incident. The bouncers were stood on raised platforms at the edge of the dancefloor, there was a man on the dancefloor being given a piggy-back (his head was about 7ft6 from the ground if that. The bouncer pointed his laser directly into the man's eye (from the edge of the dancefoor 20ft away) then once he had his attention, told him to get down. This was a non-violent incident where the only risk was one of falling off the guys back.

 

This is wholly unacceptable IMO as no attempt was made at getting the man's attention before the laser was used, pointed intentionally at the punter's eye.

 

Josh

[kerry davies]

Can't agree fully Jonny, have to go with Simon and boringly repeat my diatribe that management in the UK is failing to manage things before they happen and relying on the sticking plaster solution following incidents. I've done my fair share of raves and club nights with minimal physical intervention and progressively less as things like SIA have been introduced.

 

I agree also that; "some people obviously have had a few too many" but that is in itself a management failing. It is illegal to serve alcohol to the inebriated but clubs seem more interested in taking the money and then spending it on repair rather than prevention.

 

My approach to Health, Safety and Welfare management is not to pick up the pieces but to manage things to prevent them shattering in the first place. There are half a dozen pubs in my little town. The former manager of the biggest was strict on drugs, aggro and drunkenness so the consortium were upset by his profit margins. They introduced a new, looser management and the police eventually had to close it permanently. Go figure.

 

That doesn't mean your views are not valid, they are merely personal experience so well worth having.