Towing and O license

[zac coupe]

Hi Chaps,/

Not posted on here in a while but hope everyones well.

Im putting in for my 18t + e shortly so will have the necessary qualifications.

We have a large JT roof system with 30 decks of litedeck and for our smaller shows I've been considering buying a trailer to hook onto my lt35 to save on truck and driver/extra van hire.

 

I have a couple of questions, I've read up on the official website but if I'm brutally honest I'm a little confused.

 

I understand I will need an o license as my vehicle exceeds 3.5t gross when towing, this is not a problem as I have an industrial unit which should be approved. I also believe we have necessary capital but if anyone knows exactly what figure of working capital I will require for a restricted license for a towing VW LT35?

 

Also do I need tacos if I'm towing within a 55km radios?

 

I want to be sure we get this right as the last thing we want to be doing is sitting at the side of the road explaining to a client we are going to be delayed as we do not have correct licensing for our vehicles.

 

Thanks in advance

 

Zac

[kerry davies]

Too many variables to answer in one hit.

What is the MAM/GTW of the LT? Some but not all go up to 5.5 Tonnes. How much weight will be on the trailer? Will the neighbours object when you advertise that you are using the premises for an "O" licence? Can you satisfy yourself that you will never be outside the local limits? No second chances on tacho's, straight fine.

 

Probably the best source of info on BR is Chris Monk (cfmonk) as he has been down the route recently. Since he is in the tent business he also probably has the time to spare because it is complex. Some cases can be argued that it is your own tools and equipment and in very similar cases they may come down on the side of hire or reward, it makes a difference.

 

I presume you have been on the VOSA website? (See below) There is a small problem in some cases that different police forces can have differing interpretations so checking with other operators in your area could be wise. And do stick "towing licence" in the BR search and have a very merry few hours working through the list especially "Tacho Requirements." Complex!

 

https://online.businesslink.gov.uk/Transport_Theme_files/Goods_Vehicle_Licensing_Guide_OpsGV74_01112.pdf

http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/Vehicles%20Exempt%20From%20Operator%20Licensing%20Requirements.pdf

[Pete McCrea]

We have a restricted O Licence and one of our vehicles is fitted with a towerbar - VW Transporter plated to 3.2t MAM, with the ability to tow a 2.5t braked trailer, giving approx GTW of 5.7t I believe (it's outside but I can't be arsed to go and check!).

 

My understanding, from reading around the subject, is that once the 'Train Weight' (so vehicle and trailer) exceeds 3.5t, and is driven for commercial purposes, then you will need to drive under the tacho rules, (which I have seen referred to as being 'in Scope') and you will need to abide by the working time directive too. I have seen suggestions that once you have undertaken in scope driving, that it is worth noting all out of scope driving in a diary, I believe partly to give a paper trail to VOSA should there be any issues.

 

However if the use is non commercial, then I don't need to abide by all this.

 

My understanding is that you do not need the O Licence for vehicles under 7.5t MAM - our O Licence is for two vehicles and 0 Trailers, and out Crafter and Transporter are not listed under this.

 

Getting the O Licence was actually pretty easy. We used a local maintenance yard to give us a maintenance schedule which satisfied VOSA, (something they do quite regularly by all accounts), we have parking at our unit, the landlord was happy for us to have an O Licence, the application went through unchallenged, and the bank/capital details were fine too. Compared to what I was led to believe, it was pretty easy, taking about 8hrs in total to complete the forms gubbins, then about a month to actually get it sorted and approved. It is a process designed to prevent cowboys from getting them, but I your serious about flouting the laws, you just go buy the tractor and trailer and run them with out the licence....

 

As it happens I'm going to a briefing session tomorrow run by VOSA, so will be asking questions like these to get the facts from the horses mouth. I fully suspect that they won't have the answers, as we are a niche industry, and that the seminars are aimed squarely at traditional hauliers. I will report back....

[Simon Lewis]

The advice I had a long time ago was that if my 3.5t van was pulling a close coupled trailer under 1020kg unladen weight, then I needed a tacho but not an O licence.

 

However, there is a change to the law from December 2011 - which actually works somewhat in our favour detailed here: http://assets.dft.go...ler-leaflet.pdf

 

If you are carrying own goods for your own use (3.5t + small trailer), an O licence is not needed. The pdf gives quite exhaustive examples. However, if it is for "hire or reward" then any trailer used with the vehicle taking it over 3.5t MAM would trigger the need for an O licence.

 

Incidently, if the OP is hungry, he may well need tacos... ;-)

[kerry davies]

Hi Pete, be careful, the actual figures for the T5 are as you say 3.2 and 2.5 but the GTW is 5.2 not 5.7.(VW info)

Told you it was complex and if anyone is buying a new trailer cop for this lot;

http://www.vwt4forum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=93999

 

Thanks for the link Simon though the definitions are still interpretable. What happens when you own the 'digger', you tow it and leave it on site for the customer to use (like say a stage)? One of our contractors was fined for no tacho last year for just that type of delivery and he may now have to get an 'O' licence as well. (Gloshire boy coming through Ross, Pete.)

 

VOSA do indeed think we are a strange bunch and sometimes even their people can give conflicting information.

 

Taco's are useless, Ginster's don't drop stuff all over the drivers lap.

[zac coupe]

Many thanks for all the help guys, and thankyou for the link there simon.

There seems to be alot of conflicting rules, perhaps its just how they are conveyed, however I think I phone call may be in order to the o licensing chaps to explain exactly my plans. I'd hope our application to be easy as we have landlords permission and a truck maintainance company 2 doors down who are happy to help.

I'll update with any findings.

Look forward to hearing other folks experiences.

Cheers

[Derek Tallent]

If you are carrying your own equipment, (and charging for it) you will not need an O Licence as long as the unladen weight of the trailer is less than 1020kg. If you are carrying other people's goods and charging for it (ie as a courier company) then this is classed as "hire or reward" and you will need an O Licence. (This is from VOSA's own January newsletter which can be downloaded from their website)

 

However, as soon as you hook a trailer onto the back of your Transit/Sprinter/LT35 etc and take the gross weight over 3.5t you will need a tachograph fitted to the van and you'll be subject to drivers' hours regulations.

 

We have a transit Jumbo 3.5t van with tow bar, tachograph etc. I've just ordered a new 14' box trailer with an unladen weight of 675kg. The maximum weight of the van/trailer combination is 6000kg, so we're getting close to a payload of 2750kg for the combination, without the need for an O licence (and this is almost as much as some 7.5t trucks).

 

Of course, if you passed your driving test after 1997, you will need to take a trailer test to get the correct category on your driving licence, unlike us old farts who have "grandfather" rights.

 

Hope this helps

[kerry davies]

..

 

Thanks Derek, re-reading the link that Simon posted and looking more carefully at example 3, that should cover delivery of tents and stages etc.

 

Last post was utter bilge hence the blankness therof.

K

 

Thanks Derek, re-reading the link that Simon posted and looking more carefully at example 3, that should cover delivery of tents and stages etc.

 

Last post was utter bilge hence the blankness therof.

K

[zac coupe]

So my next question would be - Do I need a tachograph if all of this years work is within a 55km radius?

 

And thank you for clarifying the facts about o licensing chaps.

 

Cheers

 

Zac

[kerry davies]

Probably! The limit is 50Km and the exemption that has been quoted to you is almost certainly that of a tradesman carrying "tools, equipment and machinery for his own use" such as electricians and builders.

 

If you deliver kit which is used by others then you almost certainly come within the drivers hours regulation and if you hire someone whose "main activity" is driving then you definitely do.

 

The case we had last Summer was a water engineer delivering and installing water equipment for our use and he was fined.

 

Obviously you may have other parameters that make you exempt but only VOSA can answer queries on specific parameters.

 

I think you should adhere to drivers hours but that is just an opinion.

[Junior8]

In my experience more people actually need O Licenses than hold them...

 

Read the drivers hours rules carefully - what counts as duty hours varies for employed and self-employed people and further for those who are self-employed by being a director of a limited company.

It is also worth remebering that in the case of Gary Neil Hart the prosecution made great play of his impaired fitness to drive through fatigue.

 

This is another area where decently written information from the authorities would do something to counter the confusion, old wive tales and barrack room lawyers too.

 

Most of the trade associations I cover advise that if a tacho is fitted it is good practice to use it whther you are required to or not. I simply pass this on.

[Pete McCrea]

Well Thursdays "New Operator Seminar" didn't really throw up any new issues.

 

It did highlight a few issues such as recording working and driving hours. The inspectors said that they would expect to see walk round checks recorded on the tacho under 'other work', so if you turned p at 08:00, they'd expect you to pop the tacho in, or make a manual entry on the digi, or in your diary recording that you clocked on at 08:00, even if you didn't actually start to drive until 10:00.

 

If you got pulled the first and only time in the year that you have driven' in scope', she said that she'd still expect to see a diary or record of your hours to ensure that you had sufficient rest in the periods prior to you undertaking the driving duty. So in my case, assuming I drove a 7.5t once in the year, then they'd be looking at me to prove that I hadn't exceeded the Working Time Directive....

 

It clarified my thought, to that actually lower the risk of having drivers hours issues, we should only ever hire in or use people that can meet these requirements. I know that if I actually tallied up the hours I spend on work, then I'd probably exceed the WTD, and therefore struggle to be legal in terms of meeting the tacho requirements. however as the operator, it is still OUR duty to ensure that the agency driver is compliant.

 

Subhired kit would be considered as our equipment for the purposes of carrying 'own equipment'.

 

Also that they expect to see a robust method for fault reporting and rectification.

 

No othe surprises relating to the van and trailer scenario, other than reinforcing the fact that as soon as the GTW hits over 3.5t you need the tacho, and WTD compliance...

 

It did however highlight the fact that the people I met from VOSA seem to be a nice bunch, and that there were a few other delegates that seemed to have quite a scary attitude to some of the aspects of being an operator.

[paulears]

Not directly linked but worthy of note:

Of course, if you passed your driving test after 1997, you will need to take a trailer test to get the correct category on your driving licence, unlike us old farts who have "grandfather" rights.

Don't forget that these 'grandfather' rights are lost if you lose your license and then get it back. I lost mine back in 2001, for a year - when it was revoked when I had a fit. After a year of no recurrence, you apply for it back - but you lose all the extra categories. So I can't drive minibuses, apart for the occasional, not for business trip. In effect, you get back a brand new, as if you're 17 license. I wonder how many people got licenses back and never checked to see if their old classes were still there. I got the motorcycle one back, but nothing big.

[cfmonk]

Thanks Kerry but unfortunately it's such a nightmare out there that I wouldn't want to give any advice except to contact VOSA especially as we did not really investigate the trailer side of things much (no B + E automatic entitlement because we're youngsters!). If you can get through to the right person there then they actually tend to be fairly helpful but if you are going to act on their advice then make sure you write down exactly what they say along with the time and the date of the call.

 

Actually getting a Restricted Operators Licence is not too difficult really except for the slightly archaic system of advertising in the local paper and the almost obligatory objection from your local council. My advice would be to apply for much more than you need (e.g. 5 vehicles of unlimited weight) and then when the local council object (which they almost certainly will) "compromise" down to say two vehicles of up to 18 tonnes. Bear in mind that if you are hiring in trucks then you will need space on your O Licence to fit them in so always worth having more approved than you own.

 

In terms of capital it's normally in the region of £5k per truck if you are going to own the vehicles but as long as you can get your bank manager to say they would approve an o/d then it's not really an issue.

 

Once you've done all of that though you need to start thinking about the Continuing Professional Competency Requirements. Oh the joy.

[Pete McCrea]

We didn't have any objections... It might have heled we're in the midst of a business park, with Wincanton, Royal Mail and several removals companies within 100m...