fincaman Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 Hello All, I have seen a few posts which favor radio mics using AAA over PP3 and on the face of it it's logical because PP3s are much more expensive and often don't last that long. With the event of lithium polymer rechargeable PP3s surley this situation is reversed because I am getting fantastic results from them. I bought six 500 mah PP3s a year ago, on my belt packs which take 42 ma I get over twelve hours to "bat low" from one charge !!! which is longer than I previously got from Duracell (10.5 hrs) and it's saving me a fortune they were paid for in a couple of shows. Regards Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jivemaster Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 Battery technology improves daily so new options are always available BUT the human element can interrupt progress by discarding discharged rechargables or failing to have a good recharge discipline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chelgrian Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 Hello All, I have seen a few posts which favor radio mics using AAA over PP3 and on the face of it it's logical because PP3s are much more expensive and often don't last that long. With the event of lithium polymer rechargeable PP3s surley this situation is reversed because I am getting fantastic results from them. I bought six 500 mah PP3s a year ago, on my belt packs which take 42 ma I get over twelve hours to "bat low" from one charge !!! which is longer than I previously got from Duracell (10.5 hrs) and it's saving me a fortune they were paid for in a couple of shows. The other problem is size. you can make the belt pack much smaller if it is engineered to take 2 or even only 1 AA battery. The thing with rechargeables is you have to be disciplined over their use. It's fine if you know the history of the batteries and you have a charging regime worked out. You cannot necessarily trust the battery meter on the pack as the discharge profile of a rechargeable is completely different to the profile of a alkaline cell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fincaman Posted October 25, 2011 Author Share Posted October 25, 2011 Battery technology improves daily so new options are always available BUT the human element can interrupt progress by discarding discharged rechargables or failing to have a good recharge discipline. I agree but it's just as easy to to confuse the used PP3 with the new one and any sound engineer that can't remember to put the batteries in the charger after the show shouldn't have a job !!! Hello All, I have seen a few posts which favor radio mics using AAA over PP3 and on the face of it it's logical because PP3s are much more expensive and often don't last that long. With the event of lithium polymer rechargeable PP3s surley this situation is reversed because I am getting fantastic results from them. I bought six 500 mah PP3s a year ago, on my belt packs which take 42 ma I get over twelve hours to "bat low" from one charge !!! which is longer than I previously got from Duracell (10.5 hrs) and it's saving me a fortune they were paid for in a couple of shows. The other problem is size. you can make the belt pack much smaller if it is engineered to take 2 or even only 1 AA battery. The thing with recharge-ables is you have to be disciplined over their use. It's fine if you know the history of the batteries and you have a charging regime worked out. You cannot necessarily trust the battery meter on the pack as the discharge profile of a rechargeable is completely different to the profile of a alkaline cell. I agree but if the belt-pack was engineered to use two AAA Lithium recharge ables it would have 8.4 volts and anyway Lithium Polymer batteries can be made in any shape, when are we going to get away from the stock sizes of this 40 year old technology. I have six belt-packs, it really is very simple to put the batteries in the charger after the show. If I was working in a pro theatre I would have two sets one marked red and on marked blue. You only have to observe the battery meter during one discharge to learn it's characteristics mine actually tells you the voltage and anyway they last over 12 hours so it's not exactly critical I don't think people have bothered to work out the savings i.e. if a theater had 10 belt-packs using lithium PP3's rated at 1200 charges as mine are that's the equivalent of 12000 normal PP3's if you are paying £2.25 that's £27000 less your original investment of about £100 to me it's no contest. After all no one would buy a mobile phone or MP3 player where you had to change the battery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chelgrian Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 I don't think people have bothered to work out the savings i.e. if a theater had 10 belt-packs using lithium PP3's rated at 1200 charges as mine are that's the equivalent of 12000 normal PP3's if you are paying £2.25 that's £27000 less your original investment of about £100 to me it's no contest. After all no one would buy a mobile phone or MP3 player where you had to change the battery Where do you even get Lithium PP3s? Generally LiOn or Lithium Polymer batteries are generally not made in standard cell sized due to their inclination to explode if charged incorrectly. It is mostlu because of this that phones contain non standard cells and have the charging circuitry built in to the phone. On the subject of cost of PP3s they are ~80p a cell if Procells are bought in bulk, still £9600 by your reckoning but in many places cases the costs are absorbed the budgets of many different productions. Making the financial argument works for single long running productions and situations where operators move round with the kit. Even using more commonly available and safer NiMH cells the economics stack up but again it means that someone has to buy and look after the cells. Where as alkalines can just be charged to the budget of the show in hand and forgotten about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramdram Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 Google says: http://www.microbatt-online.co.uk/products/9V-PP3-Lithium-Polymer-Rechargeable-Battery.html Leave it up to those interested to google the charger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fincaman Posted October 26, 2011 Author Share Posted October 26, 2011 I don't think people have bothered to work out the savings i.e. if a theater had 10 belt-packs using lithium PP3's rated at 1200 charges as mine are that's the equivalent of 12000 normal PP3's if you are paying £2.25 that's £27000 less your original investment of about £100 to me it's no contest. After all no one would buy a mobile phone or MP3 player where you had to change the battery Where do you even get Lithium PP3s? Generally LiOn or Lithium Polymer batteries are generally not made in standard cell sized due to their inclination to explode if charged incorrectly. It is mostlu because of this that phones contain non standard cells and have the charging circuitry built in to the phone. On the subject of cost of PP3s they are ~80p a cell if Procells are bought in bulk, still £9600 by your reckoning but in many places cases the costs are absorbed the budgets of many different productions. Making the financial argument works for single long running productions and situations where operators move round with the kit. Even using more commonly available and safer NiMH cells the economics stack up but again it means that someone has to buy and look after the cells. Where as alkalines can just be charged to the budget of the show in hand and forgotten about. I am astounded that you would say that £9600 could be just absorbed I'll bet you haven't told whoever is in charge of finance, I would love to know where procells can be bought for 80 p can you tell us who your supplier is ? It's very easy to buy li-ion batteries and chargers I bought six 500 mah and a 6 way charger on eBay they are made in all standard sizes and are fully protected against over charging and shorts and are just as safe as NiMH cells but the performance is much better, All modern devices come with li-ion batteries and once again I say why are we sticking to the stock sizes of this 40 year old technology surely the way forward is to have an internal LI-ion battery of say 1600 mah and a charging cradle on the receiver or separate, on my belt-packs this would give THIRTY EIGHT HOURS !!! of performance so even if you forgot to charge the batteries for several performances there would be no problem. To me this would be so obviously a step forward and I don't understand why I am getting resistance to the idea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkPAman Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 I would love to know where procells can be bought for 80 p can you tell us who your supplier is ? A quick google found me this company Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fincaman Posted October 26, 2011 Author Share Posted October 26, 2011 Google says: http://www.microbatt...le-Battery.html Leave it up to those interested to google the charger. Hello a six way charger can be bought for £19and 500 mah PP3's for about £8 (and falling) I have been using these items for a year with fantastic results 13 hours on my beltpacks, they were paid for in the first show http://www.ebay.co.u...984.m1438.l2649 http://www.ebay.co.u...984.m1438.l2648 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ynot Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 I am astounded that you would say that £9600 could be just absorbed I'll bet you haven't told whoever is in charge of finance, No, I think you have the wrong end of that particular stick. As has been said, for long running shows in the same venue, OR for touring shows with a dedicated small noise team who can instil an effective regime of proper management and charging of mic batteries, I can see that decent rechargeables can certainly cut the battery costs as you suggest. he problem comes when you consider fixed venues with multiple shows coming in, be they pro tours or - like my venue - a wide variety of amateur organisations. With that will be the inevitable raft of different noise boys (and gals) all of whom will have the interests of their 'own' shows in mind, and thus MAY not be too worried about the next ones through the door. (And believe me I've seen the "I'm alright Jack" attitude in the past from both am and pro crew). So the prospect of the next crew coming in and finding dead rechargeables is potentially much higher. That, plus the fact that each company using our venue's mics gets charged for the batteries they use means that essentially the cost of powering the mics is covered each time regardless. So even if all our 14 mics were in use all week every week, WE, the venue, would not be out of pocket because of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cedd Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 As a local engineer found out when using rechargeables, it's alright until the caretaker trips the hall socket circuit breaker when locking up to turn off all the pit lights. Said circuit breaker gets put back in when opening up, about an hour and a half before curtain - cue lots of flat radio mic batteries! With standard batteries you at least have some control, you knew when they're new and if you're disciplined with your changing (only removing packaging before they're fitted) you have no question marks. Yes there's the (very) occasional duff one, but they show up pretty quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jivemaster Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 The two downsides for rechargeables are the recharging regime needed and the fact that lots of packs at the top end report back their battery status based on the discharge of an alkaline cell life potential change. MOST rechargeable cells have different voltage profile on discharge from alkaline cells. The serious expense with rechargeables comes when a visiting noise person discards them and inserts alkaline cells. Other than that rechargeables are fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitlane Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 I seem to recall one of the big companies (Autograph or Orbital??) doing a bit of testing/research into this a few years back. I'm a bit out of touch these days so I did a quick search and found a few interesting articles including this pdf from Julie's Bicycle and this related web article. They describe how Broadway and now West End productions of Wicked are using rechargeable mic batteries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ynot Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 I seem to recall one of the big companies (Autograph or Orbital??) doing a bit of testing/research into this a few years back. I'm a bit out of touch these days so I did a quick search and found a few interesting articles including this pdf from Julie's Bicycle and this related web article. They describe how Broadway and now West End productions of Wicked are using rechargeable mic batteries.That's fine, but as I mentioned, it's FAR easier for a long run show to manage this, not so easy for weekly changeovers and several different crews working a venue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shez Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 Looks like Autograph are using Fischer Amp batteries and chargers. Having had a look at their products, there's a rather striking resemblance to Ansmann products, of which I have a good charger, tester and some batteries. Does anyone know if one is just a different badge for the other? Did one take over the other? Is one a cheap rip-off of the other?If they're deemed to be good enough for Broadway / WE shows, I might try a couple of sets during my next couple of musicals and see how I get on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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