Should I be Paid?

[NoobTech]

The payment is the experience you can put onto your CV!

[GridGirl]

The payment is the experience you can put onto your CV!

 

Yes, except that in the "real" world school experience counts for very little. Particularly when you get a CV from a 16 year old which says things like "head technician" and "chief of lighting" and the like. Yes, it may teach you some skills which you can list on your CV - "Program Zero88 Jester lighting desk" and the like - but realistically no employer wants a list of all the shows you did at school with grand job titles which actually don't mean anything...

[kerry davies]

GG makes the point well in that school and college experience is worth little in real-world terms. To take the OP's situation and to generalise across the area of school and college student technicians there are good reasons for the lack of substance to the "experience".

 

Most students helping out on theatre tech are under the guidance of teachers and lecturers with no technical bias and limited or dubious experience. Unless there is a resident technician with teaching duties the experience they gain can actually be a negative if they have picked up the bad habits of unqualified lecturers and teachers.

 

Nobody knows, under current conditions, what a student may have learned, good or bad, so the safest thing to do is disregard everything that has been "learned" under these circumstances. Students and young people just don't know what they don't know which is a hazardous situation to be in. Experience gained from inexperienced people is simply worthless which is why I am an advocate of apprentice-style, real-world training.

 

At 16 I too was omniscient and immortal, but it wore off!

[paulears]

I must admit I get loads of CVs, from people at school, college and just about to finish uni, and they often have impressive CVs - on the surface, then you note a certain venue is repeated. A quick Google reveals it is the in-house venue - which means it may well not work in the same way as a professional venue. Some do, but in my experience, it's rare. So I usually discount this venue, often leaving little else apart from the odd day at external venues, perhaps when it's been hired for the size. Stripping all this out can reduce an impressive CV to hardly anything worthwhile at all. A week or two on an amateur show at a big venue, or some box pushing at a festival mean more than lighting designer on a college show.

[azlan]

I must admit I get loads of CVs, from people at school, college and just about to finish uni, and they often have impressive CVs - on the surface, then you note a certain venue is repeated. A quick Google reveals it is the in-house venue - which means it may well not work in the same way as a professional venue. Some do, but in my experience, it's rare. So I usually discount this venue, often leaving little else apart from the odd day at external venues, perhaps when it's been hired for the size. Stripping all this out can reduce an impressive CV to hardly anything worthwhile at all. A week or two on an amateur show at a big venue, or some box pushing at a festival mean more than lighting designer on a college show.

 

 

Can I just ask a quick query about that, although, I'm no longer at school (and wouldn't put any of the productions from there on my CV) would you say the same applies to in-house venues at university level? I work as a sound engineer at our students union, so I was curious as to how someone like you would perceive a job like that on a CV

 

 

[nothingatall666]

Hi all

I'm the technical manager at my school so am in charge of sound/lighting/video etc.

 

 

Careful of the 'title' you give yourself. I'm sure the school has a staff member who is 'in charge' (drama teacher/I.T tech)

 

I'm responsible for the maintenance of the current equipment and for specifying new equipment etc.

The dependence on my skills is relatively great.

 

Responsibility? previously discussed..

Are you 'responsible for the maintiance..' because you chose to be? (different to being asked)

 

 

My question is as the skills I offer are valuable to the school am I legally entitled to minimum wage?

 

'legally entitled'? pah! the skills I offer to my house are valuable - doesn't get me any wage..

 

 

Okay, enough with the snide comments from me..

 

 

I understand your thought.. and I have been in your position, knowing more than the staff (and so you should if you want a career in the industry), being called upon by them whenever there is something remotely technical (Even sorting out the classroom whiteboard)

 

However, you need to understand that you will never get payment in school.. it's hard enough to get paid well after school!

 

I am slightly surprised that you're thinking of payment. if they let you take classes off? play with the stuff you want to etc. your payment will be there in other ways.. trust me.

 

 

when I was at school (well, 16 and at school) I put a huge amount of time and effort in supporting the staff and helping them with all their technical problems. I received lots of payment (in different ways). my relationship with the staff was far superior to the other students, and this meant that I could be more cheeky in class, was always allowed to skip lessons when I had to 'do something technical', essays and assignments had much more relaxed deadlines, never paid to photocopy/print/get a new pen/ruler etc. and got a wealth of support if I needed some help on a subject.

Ultimately my payment was my grades. which is a bigger benefit than money that would've just been spent.

 

if you're just looking for money then I would suggest you stop helping out.

 

GG makes the point well in that school and college experience is worth little in real-world terms. To take the OP's situation and to generalise across the area of school and college student technicians there are good reasons for the lack of substance to the "experience".

 

Most students helping out on theatre tech are under the guidance of teachers and lecturers with no technical bias and limited or dubious experience. Unless there is a resident technician with teaching duties the experience they gain can actually be a negative if they have picked up the bad habits of unqualified lecturers and teachers.

 

Nobody knows, under current conditions, what a student may have learned, good or bad, so the safest thing to do is disregard everything that has been "learned" under these circumstances. Students and young people just don't know what they don't know which is a hazardous situation to be in. Experience gained from inexperienced people is simply worthless which is why I am an advocate of apprentice-style, real-world training.

 

At 16 I too was omniscient and immortal, but it wore off!

 

If you learned nothing that you still hold in your knowledge then I would be surprised. sure the OP should take anything that a teacher tells them with a pinch of salt. but the things that are self taught? that's some of the most valuable stuff!

 

I electrocuted myself when I was about 11, and that big mistake gave me knowledge I have now (not saying the OP should go out of their way to do this, in fact I would discourage it! ouch!)

[paulears]

If you electrocuted yourself at 11, then we're talking to a ghost which would be a first,as you are dead!

To Azlan

I'd pay more attention to uni sound, than uni theatre - because the skills needed to even mic up useless bands and make them sound good don't need advanced musical skills,and of course you often get name bands passing through unis - but usually 'self-contained' - but you still see how they do it, even if you are house crew.

 

The theatre shows are a bit different. Some education venues, even some in schools and colleges can be fitted out very professionally, but if the shows are created in-house, then they are often run in a quite different way to professional venues - so some skills and techniques are picked up in a distorted way. The usual feature missing is the ability to work in, and perhaps even understand the demarcation and rule book of theatre. Somebody who doesn't know that BECTU spend time putting work into timed blocks, and working out what to do when the schedule overuns and breaks and lunches get wiped out is really lacking essential skills. Working on amateur shows where everyone has the common goal is quite tricky when they expect the venue staff to do the same. A couple of weeks ago, we started at 8am on a Sunday, the amateurs came in in blocks to rehearse - yet nobody gave a thought to food and drink - or even toilet time! The mind set is different from pro theatre. I'm not talking about production values, these can be high,or even higher sometimes - but the difference in how they do things. In pro theatre, it's done like a job, not a fun hobby. Some uni trained people don't even know theatre etiquette. In a music event, black clad scruffy people wander on and off the stage in full view before the band come on. In theatre, we have house tabs, house music and are setting the feel. Seeing a uni trained sound man casually wander down the aisle, up the steps and then waft his way through the house tab gap (as they are in cable loops at the offstage end, as it flies out) to get on stage makes my blood boil. Uni trained people on their first job in pro theatre don't even know that stage and LX are separate teams of people in many venues, so they don't realise that asking a stage guy about a cable isn't going to generate the correct response. They often don't even know basic safety stuff like what 'heads' might mean. They are sometimes totally mystified by very common stage machinery if their one and only venue for 3 years didn't have it.

 

Hence my reluctance to consider anyone with just a single venue's worth of experience. It can also be because some venues (like my own summer one) do not do things properly. Lack of people, budget and repair mean that sometimes we do things badly, wrong or even occasionally dangerously (from the kind of viewpoint other venues have).

 

If I went to another venue, and removed the lid of a contactor, and prodded the centre with the handle of a screwdriver tied to a bit of string, (because the key had been lost many years ago) would they be impressed. At our venue to turn on sound power, fed via a contactor because it's connected to the fire alarm, we do this process ever day. Such 'standard practices' would be considered ridiculous elsewhere.

 

Educational theatre is never the same as 'real' theatre - so although it looks pretty impressive on the CV, it has no quality or content standard.

[LXRob]

I like others who have spoken here put in many 100's of hours of voluntary work in to all technical aspects of school life and shows over many years. over time I have gained invaluable experience this alone would be enough reward.

 

However this experience meant when the person who the school employed to do the technical work left (mainly AV setup and running, lighting the school shows, filming school events) I was the logical person to fill her shoes, I was 18 early in september right at the start of term and had many free periods available so I wouldn't have to miss lessons. So because I am doing something the school would be paying someone to do anyway I got the job,(I already new the equipment, no training required) I think there lies the difference if the school would be paying someone anyway because it is a role deemed necessary by the school (although I don't doubt the undervaluing of young passionate peoples contributions to school technical departments in many many institutions.) and you get the job that is more than reasonable.

 

It is difficult, and I speak from a privileged position. However the experience I gained on a voluntary bases led to me getting sought after experience in real world theatres, this is the true payment!!!

 

All the best to you and your future in the industry :)

 

I would add that what nothingatall666 says about building relationship with teachers and learning about working with them collaboratively beyond the student-teacher relationship is one of the most rewarding things and part of how I found my time at school enjoyable.

[grizzly]

[off topic]

 

If you electrocuted yourself at 11, then we're talking to a ghost which would be a first,as you are dead!

 

Ah, that old chestnut

 

electrocute, v.

1. trans. To put to death by means of a powerful electric current; to execute in the electric chair.

2. trans. To give an electric shock to; esp. (chiefly refl. or in pass.) to kill or injure by electric shock.

 

 

electrocution, n.

1. Execution by means of a powerful electric current; an instance of this.

2. Death or injury caused by electric shock.

 

 

[/off topic]

[tbexon]

a quick question out of interest as I've always wondered I understand about how putting the same venue on loads of times etc is a big no no and doesn't look very professional but my question is this: what sort of things would you rather see on the CV of someone who is at university or recently finished school (I'm talking about someone who is 18/19/20 but who hasn't been working in the industry full time for much)?

[ImagineerTom]

Honesty!

 

List the shows / venues you've worked but state it was "am-dram" or you were the "house tech" for several different shows - don't "edit" it to try and imply (deliberately or through ambiguity) that you've worked dozens of tours and events.

 

 

[tbexon]

fair enough but would you consider it ambiguity to write something like "I am regularly invited to volunteer in a large number of events at a small venue where I am required to operate, set up and pack down the sound equipment" instead of listing all these small events which don't really count for much on their own but together show that you are clearly liked enough to be regularly invited back?

[ramdram]

tbexon, you may rest assured whoever reads your CV will do the palimpsest thing and read between the lines.

 

Anyone whose age does not correspond with their claimed experience will have exposed themselves as a wannabe or a "Billy Liar" type character, who is actually writing themselves out of an interview...let alone job.

 

The folk who are likely to be your employer are not simple. I think it was Paulears who commented some while back that you might be invited to cobble up a desk to amp and mics or desk to dimmers and lanterns. If you could not complete a task then it is not unreasonable for your interviewer to assume you don't really have a clue. TR in Plymouth have a similar set of tasks so it is virtually a given to assume most theatres will do something similar.

 

There is only so much you can learn from watching youTube vids, even if you do have a bubble machine.

[kerry davies]

It always helps to define words specifically, thus a curriculum vita or CV is; "an outline of a person's educational and professional history, usually prepared for job applications."

 

I would take that as non-professional experience counting towards ones education rather than work history. I would rather see something along the lines of; Worked on a voluntary basis at XYZ venues covering ABC duties for N months/years. It would not need to go further with lists of shows or artistes because you would go on to enumerate the skills you had gained at whatever level.

 

As I wrote in another similar topic, willy waving can be the downfall of many starstruck applicants. If there is even a hint that they might be here for the glamour it is filed in Box 13 almost inevitably.

[jacet]

One other thing which was on a CV I received recently... If you have limited experience and are listing all the shows you have worked on, don't list every show in a run as a different event, i.e.:

07/11/11 - Sound engineer for West Side Story (Royston Vasey Amateur Dramatics Society) - Royston Vasey Village Hall.

08/11/11 - Sound engineer for West Side Story (Royston Vasey Amateur Dramatics Society) - Royston Vasey Village Hall.

09/11/11 - Sound engineer for West Side Story (Royston Vasey Amateur Dramatics Society) - Royston Vasey Village Hall.

10/11/11 - Sound engineer for West Side Story (Royston Vasey Amateur Dramatics Society) - Royston Vasey Village Hall.

 

You may be trying to bulk out your CV a bit to make it more impressive but it's pretty obvious and looks a bit silly.