JMeG Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Okay, I've been asked to recommend a set-up for one of several amateur dramatics groups around here. It's a place stuck in a time-zone and afraid of change and technology, but the recent panto, in which I used a handheld radio mic for and simply two SM57s on stage for speech amplification, got them convinced that they need to spend some money on the here and now of theatre. Anyway... I know plently about your band micing, your singers and general PA, but when it comes to properly micing up a stage, I'm not so sure. What would you recommend - I thought of two rifle mics front of house on the walls, as I've seem done many times before, but I haven't a clue what type or anything. Stage is approx 5-6m wide by 4-5m deep. Audotorium area is about 8m wide by 12m long. Hope someone can point me somewhere, even if it's just a web link... Jamie :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanG Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 What would you recommend - I thought of two rifle mics front of house on the walls, as I've seem done many times before, but I haven't a clue what type or anything.<{POST_SNAPBACK}> Rifles are okay at best, in my opinon. Much better are boundary mics mounted along the front of the stage. I've used AT 815a boundary mics before with success and have just purchased a set of Crown PCC-160 mics which I'm hoping will give even better results. If you can, get hold of a 31 band graphic eq and learn how to ring out the mics - this will make a huge amount of difference to how useful they will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Need Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 We're getting rid of our old PCC 160's if any use Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMeG Posted January 17, 2005 Author Share Posted January 17, 2005 Thank you for the advice there. Paul - I may be interested in your old boundary mics; drop me a PM and we can discuss it. More views welcome :-) (There may be a financial issue with such hi-end mics so perhaps there are cheaper options??) Jamie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Personaly I would not recomend rifle mics. http://www.coutant.org/spec_ck98.gif If you have a look at the pickup patern of this typical rifle microphone, (AKG SE300B with CK98) you see huge rear lobes compared to the vertical pickup of the PCC 160 http://www.donlinte.com/level2/level3/L3images/pcc160_diag.JPG but whatever you do use I would recomend using a parametric equaliser rather than a graphic to ring them out, insert if on all the mics as a group, use an odd number of microphones accross the stage. And have the absolute minimum up at any one time to achieve your aims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 Why use an odd number? I thought that to maximise gain before feedback you should minimise the number of open mics. Basically, what I'm saying is on a small stage, would 3 be preferable to 2? Bruce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbsy Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 Another vote for boundary mics rather than shotguns....PCC160s are pretty common in professional theatre and work pretty well. The reasoning behind having an odd number of mics is that this lets you put one on the apron centre stage, with the remaining ones spread at regular intervals across the stage. Centre stage is USUALLY a desireable position for a prime microphone since quite of lot of staging puts big solos etc. there. Obviously this is not always true...but it's not a bad rule of thumb. Finally, yes, you're right about keeping the number of open mics to a minimum...even with boundary mics, it's worth mixing the show and only opening mics as required, not just turning them on and leaving them. Besides helping with gain before feedback, making sure sound is only being reproduced from a single mic at any time also helps prevent phase problems/comb filter effects. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 Re an odd number - makes sense........ I know this is one of those "how long is a piece of string" questions, but how will the pickup from a typical boundary mike, floor mounted, compare with (say) a cardioid condenser, stand mounted at about 3 feet above stage level. Obviously the stand-mounted one will be more visually intrusive...... With boundary mics, how difficult is it to isolate them from the floor? I know that the presence of the flat surface (floor in this case) is essential to the audio characteristics of this type of mic, but I worry about picking up footsteps etc. Do they need to be foam insulated? Bruce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david.elsbury Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 Why use an odd number? I thought that to maximise gain before feedback you should minimise the number of open mics. Basically, what I'm saying is on a small stage, would 3 be preferable to 2? Bruce.<{POST_SNAPBACK}>Because it places one DSC, where there tends to be a lot of blocking by directors. Hence, because you want to minimise the total number of mics open, this allows you to more easily isolate and pickup the centre spot. DavidEDIT: Sorry, just realised the question had been well and truly answered. Back to the corner for me... :unsure: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 Why use an odd number? I thought that to maximise gain before feedback you should minimise the number of open mics. Basically, what I'm saying is on a small stage, would 3 be preferable to 2? Bruce.<{POST_SNAPBACK}> Bruce, Tou should try to work within the 3:1 rule wherever possible. Basicaly, one single source on stage should be at least three times the distance from any other open microphone than they are from the microphone that is picking them up. slightly better explination But if a stage is that small I would question if microphones are neccesary at all. Seriously, If the cast cannot project enough to be heard in a small venue when there isn't anybackground noise then they will not be able to project enough to make microphones effective and they will end up being a complete waste of money. James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 with rifles, it isn't so much the rear lobes that cause problems, but mainly because the damn things are so directional. The snag is as the talent walks accross on a stage covered by, say 3, rifles, the volume goes up down up down up down. They are very useful as a 'spot' pickup - when some crucial element happens upstage in one spot, but pcc's work better in almost every case. pzm's as in the old Tandy favourite, being omni aren't quite as useful. PCC-160's seem the most common as I've been going round different theatres, but I did get some of these for a very cash strapped venue and they have been really good. Very strong construction, cast base and metal top grill - low profile and so far, dancer proof! Phantom only - no battery option. www.cpc.co.uk part number mp33201 £37.40 + vat (the picture has vanished) Spec as per web site A wide range, back electret condenser microphone with a half-cardioid polar pattern. Ideal for surface-mounted applications, such as high quality sound reinforcement, professional recording and other demanding sound pick-up applications. The microphone is designed to be powered by an external 9V-52V dc phantom power supply and is enclosed in a heavy duty, die-cast case with rubber padding to minimize the effect of surface vibrations. Supplied with a 4m lead and 3-pin mini XLR female connector.Technical Data Element Back Electret Condenser CartridgeOutput Impedance 250 balancedSensitivity -53dB 3dBFrequency Response 30Hz-20kHzPick-up Pattern Half-cardioidMaximum Input Sound Level 130dB SPL 1kHz@1% THDMaterial Die-Cast AlloyOutput Connector 3-pin XLRPower 9-52V dc phantomWeight 460gDimensions (LxDia.) 120x110mm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard_cooper Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 www.cpc.co.uk part number mp33201 £37.40 + vat (the picture has vanished) Paul, does this resemble the T.Bone GZ400 by any chance? I picked one up just to try out, but have not got around to it. The specs cirtainly sound similar! Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMeG Posted January 19, 2005 Author Share Posted January 19, 2005 Bruce, Tou should try to work within the 3:1 rule wherever possible. Basicaly, one single source on stage should be at least three times the distance from any other open microphone than they are from the microphone that is picking them up. slightly better explination But if a stage is that small I would question if microphones are neccesary at all. Seriously, If the cast cannot project enough to be heard in a small venue when there isn't anybackground noise then they will not be able to project enough to make microphones effective and they will end up being a complete waste of money. James<{POST_SNAPBACK}> Looks like Bruce has hi-jacked the post! ha! In defence of the old fashioned gits at the soc, the mics would be mainly for weak solo singers and the extra boost for chorus numbers. This is amdram, darling... I'm interested in the issue Bruce mentioned about footsteps. Where I've seen these used before, each cast member does a delightful impression of a drunk pony while clomping across the acting area. Is there a special way to mount these to stop that? Jamie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce Posted January 19, 2005 Share Posted January 19, 2005 Sorry for hijacking - looks like we're both trying to acomplish the same thing! Anyway - I've just come back from the dress rehearsal for a (very) amateur panto that I've been roped into. It's their first rehearsal with any sort of sound gear in place. I asked about it a couple of weeks ago on another thread, and got lots of useful opinions. So here's what I did.... first of all, I ignored all of the advice about odd numbers of mics Not through choice though - I only had 2 of each type available tonight. Hope to have 3 for the weekend.... I tried 2x AT871 boundary mics at the front of the apron, and also a couple of C91s in roughly the same position, on stands about 3 feet above the stage. 2 more C91s hanging several feet behind curtain. Boundary mics were connected via a feedback destroyer. I alternated between the 2 different front setups to compare them. I managed to get more gain-before-feedback with the C91s, even though the other pair had the feedback destroyer. The boundarys picked up lots of footsteps - it's a very noisy home-made stage - but placing them on a piece of foam helped a lot. I'm sure I'd have got significantly better results using a PCC160, which has better directional characteristics I think.... Bruce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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