Snake Return feed to Amps or longer Speaker Cables

[gavin456]

Sorry this a bit long ….. Questions are at the end of this………..but we have a small festival that we are organising.

 

At the moment we have 10 bands / artistes playing. There may well be a few more turning up.

 

Some will play on a small outdoor (weather permitting) stage using the 2nd PA mentioned below.

 

The main bands will play on the main stage.

 

There will be at least three drum kits and one Electronic Drum Set

 

The Hall is an aircraft hanger 19 metres long and 10 meters wide

 

The main stage is currently 4 metres deep by 5 metres wide

 

I propose putting FOH 10 to 15 metres in front of the main stage.

 

 

The Main PA system we have inherited is

 

Celestion 'Road' Speaker system

Comprising:

Two 'Front of House' Bass / Midrange Cabinets; each containing:

2 X 15" Bass Speakers.

1 X wide angle (mids) Horn( built in passive crossover )

Two 'Front of House' Treble Cabinets; each containing:

1 X 10" Full range Speaker.

1 X H.F Horn.(built in passive crossover)

Two 15 Metre Heavy Duty (1.5mm) cables for main cabs,

Two 1 Metre cables, to link top cabs to Bass units.

All cables fitted with correct plugs and all polarity (phase) checked.

 

System Rack Case; containing:

. Behringer Feedback Destroyer (automatic seeking or manual override mode).

. Behringer 'Europower' Model EP2500 Power Amp,

2X1200 Watts (RMS) or 2.4K bridged mode.

. Behringer Rack tuner BTR2000

. Samson Radio Receiver (with transmitter belt-pack).

. Alesis 'Microverb 4' Signal processing rack.

 

All inter-linking cables and 'built in' mains distribution.

 

Mixing Desk:

Studiomaster 16:2 F1 Spirit Folio with transit case.

 

 

The second PA is a Yamaha EMX 660

with 2 x Yamaha S115V 1000w speakers

with Mackie DFX 12 mixer and Mackie DFX 6

 

We have a two snakes available

 

50 metre 32 / 4 snake and a 15 metre 6/2.

 

 

The current main stage plan shows we will have

 

4 vocal mikes

4 guitar amp mikes

1 DI for bass

1 DI for acoustic guitar

2 DI for keyboard ( stereo feed )

2 DI for Electronic Drums ( stereo feed )

2 hand percussion mikes

 

making 16 possible connections

 

There may well be a couple or so of wireless inputs, but that depends on the musicians.

 

The steam drums will have 5 mikes into a submixer

 

 

We will probably use either the F1 Spirit or Mackie 1604 VLZ PRO mixer or a

 

Soundcraft Spirit Live 4 24, depending on how much kit we have to connect up front.

 

When the small stage acts have finished we would then bring in the Yamaha EMX 660 and use its speakers as side speakers and feed that and the Main Behringer EP2500 Power Amp from the FOH desk using a Stageline splitter.

 

My question is.

 

Is it better to place the main amp at the FOH and run longer speaker connection from the FOH to the main PA’s. This would be probably mean using a run of some 25 metres in least 2.5 mm cable if not 4mm.

 

Or

 

Place the Behringer main Amp on the stage and feed it from the desk ( probably the Soundcraft Spirit Live 4 24) using some of the spare snake feeds as returns.

[brainwave-generator]

The actual answer to the question is... the second one. Send the outputs down the return and put the amp racks on / under the stage.

 

However, you will want everything else from the rack at FOH.

 

Remember you'll want to feed it from a GEQ between the desk and the amp rack. Not using a GEQ will probably result in some problems.

 

I WILL ALSO ADD...

1) I am not sure your PA is sufficiently big. 20x10 with a high roof is a big space to fill. The Celestion Road is a cheapo system that isn't very powerful. It was one of the first plastic cabinet speaker systems and didn't go down very well. The speakers are front loaded so a plastic 2x15 will struggle on the bass particularly.

2) Do you have monitors? Just you hadn't listed any so I wondered...

3) Th Yamaha EX660 and pair of 115s probably won't cut it outdoors. Unless it's just acoustic acts in a tent or something. Anything more and you won't hear it.

 

It would make more sense (if you don't have monitors) to maybe consider scrapping the outdoor stage and using the 2nd stage PA as monitors on the indoor stage.

[Shez]

Or

 

Place the Behringer main Amp on the stage and feed it from the desk ( probably the Soundcraft Spirit Live 4 24) using some of the spare snake feeds as returns.

That's how one would normally do it. Always keep the speaker cables as short as possible to minimise losses.

[Jivemaster]

Convention is to send line level from FOH to a stage amp rack and use reasonably short speaker leads. Long speaker leads do soak up power noticeably.

[WolvesAndi]

also on the main stage, 4 channels of guitar and no drums? Not even a kick mic or overhead ?

[gavin456]

The actual answer to the question is... the second one. Send the outputs down the return and put the amp racks on / under the stage.

 

However, you will want everything else from the rack at FOH.

 

Remember you'll want to feed it from a GEQ between the desk and the amp rack. Not using a GEQ will probably result in some problems.

 

I WILL ALSO ADD...

1) I am not sure your PA is sufficiently big. 20x10 with a high roof is a big space to fill. The Celestion Road is a cheapo system that isn't very powerful. It was one of the first plastic cabinet speaker systems and didn't go down very well. The speakers are front loaded so a plastic 2x15 will struggle on the bass particularly.

2) Do you have monitors? Just you hadn't listed any so I wondered...

3) Th Yamaha EX660 and pair of 115s probably won't cut it outdoors. Unless it's just acoustic acts in a tent or something. Anything more and you won't hear it.

 

It would make more sense (if you don't have monitors) to maybe consider scrapping the outdoor stage and using the 2nd stage PA as monitors on the indoor stage.

 

As I said, unfortunately we inherited the Main PA system, and I hope to be able to upgrade it for next years festival as it is too late to do it now, as you rightly said it is a bit under powered.

 

I also have four active wedges(only the Behringer Eurolive F1220A 125watt as the 300 watt ones are not out till later this year)

 

In addition though at least two of the Bands have their own PA system and so I am hoping to bring those under the control of the FOH using another Stageline splitter if required.

 

The second stage is being used only for small acoustic type acts ( I hope ) and the PA and speakers will be brought in as side speakers for the main acts.

 

Any suggestions for a good GEQ would be really welcome.

 

Thanks for all the help so far.

 

also on the main stage, 4 channels of guitar and no drums? Not even a kick mic or overhead ?

 

The drums are will have five mikes and and be fed into a sub mixer before the main FOH

[brainwave-generator]

The actual answer to the question is... the second one. Send the outputs down the return and put the amp racks on / under the stage.

 

However, you will want everything else from the rack at FOH.

 

Remember you'll want to feed it from a GEQ between the desk and the amp rack. Not using a GEQ will probably result in some problems.

 

I WILL ALSO ADD...

1) I am not sure your PA is sufficiently big. 20x10 with a high roof is a big space to fill. The Celestion Road is a cheapo system that isn't very powerful. It was one of the first plastic cabinet speaker systems and didn't go down very well. The speakers are front loaded so a plastic 2x15 will struggle on the bass particularly.

2) Do you have monitors? Just you hadn't listed any so I wondered...

3) Th Yamaha EX660 and pair of 115s probably won't cut it outdoors. Unless it's just acoustic acts in a tent or something. Anything more and you won't hear it.

 

It would make more sense (if you don't have monitors) to maybe consider scrapping the outdoor stage and using the 2nd stage PA as monitors on the indoor stage.

 

As I said, unfortunately we inherited the Main PA system, and I hope to be able to upgrade it for next years festival as it is too late to do it now, as you rightly said it is a bit under powered.

 

When is the gig? I may contemplate taking sympathy on a Blue Room member with an unfortunately down-sized rig, and bring down/up our Floodlight system at a good price for you.

 

I also have four active wedges(only the Behringer Eurolive F1220A 125watt as the 300 watt ones are not out till later this year)

 

The wattage is not what matters, it's the efficiency. I have a 50-watt guitar amp that will hurt you and a 1100W bass amp that won't. Those wedges should be fine. But you'll want GEQs for those too, 1 channel of EQ for each monitor send (meaning if you're using 2 sends, with 2 monitors on each, you only need 1 stereo GEQ).

 

In addition though at least two of the Bands have their own PA system and so I am hoping to bring those under the control of the FOH using another Stageline splitter if required.

 

Mixing systems is tricky business and one EQ per rig is highly advisable, since they will behave differently, and you'll want to bring them in line with each other. Phasing is also an issue but at this level there ain't much you can do.

 

 

Any suggestions for a good GEQ would be really welcome.

 

DBX would be my first choice at a budget to be honest. But the Behringer ones do the job if you can't afford any better.

 

(If you did want to take me up on my offer above, of course I would bring a couple).

 

 

 

[kerry davies]

Gavin, who exactly is running the gig? I think that trying to do what you are attempting, with a miniscule stage, bands who "may well turn up" if and when they choose, two stages with not really enough kit for one and the general feel of an unplanned event by inexperienced people, it may be a bit too much for those involved.

 

Not being negative just concerned that you might have been a little ambitious, as I use a stage 112 sq ft bigger and wouldn't manage to squeeze all you want on that. Concerned also that you believe that you can swap PA's four times during the day.

 

I do stuff like this all the time and 10 bands is a lot more than you think, especially with non-professionals or young people. You can get away with a lot of technical difficulties but from what you post there look like some basics that have been left to one side.

 

If I can help on general planning advice then please email me, I hate being a wet blanket but reading between the lines this seems like it has the possibility of being a difficult gig. The biggest clue? That there "acoustic type acts (I hope)" gives it all away on the planning front. I hope you are licensed!

[S&L]

I would echo the last post re 10 bands being ambitious.

 

re amps on stage or FOH, I routinely do it both ways and in the real world with my experience using similar set ups over similar distance you won't notice any loss to speakers if amps are FOH. that said a beginer (myself included) worries about having control of the amps but you will get the varaition in levels you may need from your soundcraft desk.

 

re graphics, behringher are perfectly servicable given the rest of the gear you are using.

I would agree with a graphic per minitor channel/send, even a dual 15 band can be servicable for this sort of gig - and it will realy help control feedback

[brainwave-generator]

Gavin, who exactly is running the gig? I think that trying to do what you are attempting, with a miniscule stage, bands who "may well turn up" if and when they choose, two stages with not really enough kit for one and the general feel of an unplanned event by inexperienced people, it may be a bit too much for those involved.

 

Not being negative just concerned that you might have been a little ambitious, as I use a stage 112 sq ft bigger and wouldn't manage to squeeze all you want on that. Concerned also that you believe that you can swap PA's four times during the day.

 

I do stuff like this all the time and 10 bands is a lot more than you think, especially with non-professionals or young people. You can get away with a lot of technical difficulties but from what you post there look like some basics that have been left to one side.

 

If I can help on general planning advice then please email me, I hate being a wet blanket but reading between the lines this seems like it has the possibility of being a difficult gig. The biggest clue? That there "acoustic type acts (I hope)" gives it all away on the planning front. I hope you are licensed!

 

This was pretty much what I wanted to say but didn't want to deter from the subject too much.

 

My guess would be that you've got a bit of stage (of some sort) and a dirty old PA and maybe a few lights and some mics and are doing a 'festival', completely unfamiliar with the paper trail that accompanies such things.

 

Aside from the practicality issues of swapping and changing PAs as the day goes on (just... don't! Changing guitar amps and drum kits is often enough to send experienced stagehands up the wall nevermind PA systems), my first and foremost concern here would be power. If you've got bands who 'may bring along a PA in which case we'll chuck it in', does your generator have enough oomph to power all of those? What are your power arrangements? Are you competent in the use of power distribution to support your PA? Do you have an electrician or will you do the power yourself? If the latter are you competent with the use of the generator? Have you tested your distribution to check it's safe? Have you risk assessed the operation and drawn up method statements to ensure there is a substantive paper trail to follow in the event of an accident? It's just... you seem pretty clueless to what is going on. And if somebody plugs something in and gets electrocuted because your RCDs hadn't been tested and didn't fire quick enough, and ends up dead, and you end up in the dock... I imagine from what you've posted so far that you'll probably just shrug your shoulders and claim 'dunno' 'didn't know that' and 'I thought I just needed to chuck a PA in a shed and plug some bands in and we could have a festival'. Not the first, not the last, but the UK HSE's approach to festivals, even small village-fete-type-things has changed somewhat in recent times... mainly on the grounds that everyone is into suing the arse off each other at every opportunity these days. So if you don't know what you're doing 100%... just don't do it!

 

It's an unfortunate situation now where even a pub-garden festival has to be careful. I'm not saying you need to go writing risk assessments for people catching a bit of skin when plugging an XLR lead in, but unfortunately, if somebody is injured at your event.. whether public, volunteer crew, or whatever... and they decide to bring a legal case against you (possibly quite rightly, if they have lost work over it), and you cannot prove that you did everything reasonable to make it safe, his legal team will fry yo ass and eat it for breakfast. Claiming "I didn't know any better" is not a valid defence and will probably be used against you.

 

As some starting points, I would:

• Call/e-mail Kerry.

• Read up on http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/books/hsg195.htm the Event Safety Guide to give you some pointers.

• If need be (and you can provide me with the info that I need!), call me up and book my crew and our floodlight system to safely, and properly, pump your sound in for the event. Not trying to flash my business about too much, but I'll be happy to cut a best rate for a Blue Room member who needs a hand to make something work.

[paulears]

I think I'd be seriously worried about the volume level. I quite like the sound of those Celestion cabs - a local band has some and I've heard them a few times - but they need serious driving and your single amp is woefully underpowered. As mentioned, if the bands turn up with their own decent backline and drums, then you're just going to have problems getting over them. I'd certainly consider hiring in something. The stage area is pretty er, compact - but at least in the hangar you can leave space behind to set up the next band. With the PA, I don't think you have a hope of trying to mic everything up in any way at all - you'll want all the system for the vocals to get over the band. Monitors? Where you hoping to use the second PA for monitors?

[ramdram]

And, have you ever tried to "people manage" ten bands with attendant hangers on?

 

It can be a nightmare with just two! We had a band and support act two years back. The acts had their own amps onstage with a feed to our main hired in PA. The bass bloke in the support act was...had to be...stone deaf and probably his senses were chemically enhanced, so technical discussions were completely out of the question, ** laughs out loud **. His output was so loud we just did not bother having him thru' the PA at all. And he was crap anyway.

 

Quite a few people decamped to the bar 'cos of the racket.

 

So, controlling the "noise" is not quite so simple as worrying about where the amps live. If you do know most of this sort of stuff then apologies up front. If not then think of it as a "learning experience"

 

Now, did we cover sound checks?

[gavin456]

Gavin, who exactly is running the gig? I think that trying to do what you are attempting, with a miniscule stage, bands who "may well turn up" if and when they choose, two stages with not really enough kit for one and the general feel of an unplanned event by inexperienced people, it may be a bit too much for those involved.

 

Not being negative just concerned that you might have been a little ambitious, as I use a stage 112 sq ft bigger and wouldn't manage to squeeze all you want on that. Concerned also that you believe that you can swap PA's four times during the day.

 

I do stuff like this all the time and 10 bands is a lot more than you think, especially with non-professionals or young people. You can get away with a lot of technical difficulties but from what you post there look like some basics that have been left to one side.

 

If I can help on general planning advice then please email me, I hate being a wet blanket but reading between the lines this seems like it has the possibility of being a difficult gig. The biggest clue? That there "acoustic type acts (I hope)" gives it all away on the planning front. I hope you are licensed!

 

This was pretty much what I wanted to say but didn't want to deter from the subject too much.

 

My guess would be that you've got a bit of stage (of some sort) and a dirty old PA and maybe a few lights and some mics and are doing a 'festival', completely unfamiliar with the paper trail that accompanies such things.

 

Aside from the practicality issues of swapping and changing PAs as the day goes on (just... don't! Changing guitar amps and drum kits is often enough to send experienced stagehands up the wall nevermind PA systems), my first and foremost concern here would be power. If you've got bands who 'may bring along a PA in which case we'll chuck it in', does your generator have enough oomph to power all of those? What are your power arrangements? Are you competent in the use of power distribution to support your PA? Do you have an electrician or will you do the power yourself? If the latter are you competent with the use of the generator? Have you tested your distribution to check it's safe? Have you risk assessed the operation and drawn up method statements to ensure there is a substantive paper trail to follow in the event of an accident? It's just... you seem pretty clueless to what is going on. And if somebody plugs something in and gets electrocuted because your RCDs hadn't been tested and didn't fire quick enough, and ends up dead, and you end up in the dock... I imagine from what you've posted so far that you'll probably just shrug your shoulders and claim 'dunno' 'didn't know that' and 'I thought I just needed to chuck a PA in a shed and plug some bands in and we could have a festival'. Not the first, not the last, but the UK HSE's approach to festivals, even small village-fete-type-things has changed somewhat in recent times... mainly on the grounds that everyone is into suing the arse off each other at every opportunity these days. So if you don't know what you're doing 100%... just don't do it!

 

It's an unfortunate situation now where even a pub-garden festival has to be careful. I'm not saying you need to go writing risk assessments for people catching a bit of skin when plugging an XLR lead in, but unfortunately, if somebody is injured at your event.. whether public, volunteer crew, or whatever... and they decide to bring a legal case against you (possibly quite rightly, if they have lost work over it), and you cannot prove that you did everything reasonable to make it safe, his legal team will fry yo ass and eat it for breakfast. Claiming "I didn't know any better" is not a valid defence and will probably be used against you.

 

As some starting points, I would:

• Call/e-mail Kerry.

• Read up on http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/books/hsg195.htm the Event Safety Guide to give you some pointers.

• If need be (and you can provide me with the info that I need!), call me up and book my crew and our floodlight system to safely, and properly, pump your sound in for the event. Not trying to flash my business about too much, but I'll be happy to cut a best rate for a Blue Room member who needs a hand to make something work.

 

Many thanks for your helpful comments. Maybe I should add a bit more information about the event.

 

EVENT & SITE

 

This is the fourth year we have run this event. Its started very,very small and we have grown it slowly. The money raised is to help the Gliding Centre fund its activities and to raise awareness of the sport.

 

The site is an active airfield, so we have a lot of Health & Safety regulations to follow and invoke.

 

We might have people flying in, if they book their slot in, as obviously we need to control air space in advance.

 

If the weather is good we will have a free fall parachute display and so we would have to post a NOTAM about this.

 

POWER DISTRIBUTION

 

We have a 100 amp power circuit, of which we have two rings to use, both 30 amp and all on circuit trip breakers.

 

The sound will be on one circuit and the lighting on the other. The other ring is kept in reserve.

 

All electrical equipment is PAT tested and any system brought in by Bands will be tested before they can connect.

 

Individual items can be RCD's ( again tested before use )

 

If all that fails then it will be acoustic guitars, harps and percussion, plus a few hand drawn pints to keep us going..Oh and some candles !

 

 

STAGE

 

The stage is a new ( last year ) Intellistage and is safety checked before assembly each time. Last year we had a 4 x 5 metre stage, and I am bringing this up to probably 6 x 6 metres ( 36 sqm ) or maybe a bit more. I am constrained by the width of the hanger ( 10 metres ) and length ( 19 metres ) If I use up too much length, then the audience will probably get wet outside !. ( by the way Kerry you said "as I use a stage 112 sq ft bigger which is 10.sqm² maybe you meant 112 sq metres)

 

LIGHTING

 

The lighting is quite extensive ( nearly all new and LED ) and we have a lot of PAR 64, PAR 56, PAR 36,Stage Colour 24, Crowd Blinders, Moving heads, Colour Blaster's, individaul spots, Le Maitre Haze machine and another smoke machine.

 

The Lighting rig is Global Truss ( new ) supported by four Work pro LW 135R. ( Everything is safety checked twice by two different person before assembly and raising ) No working at height is permitted.

 

The lighting is run by several Transcension DC1224 and I am hoping to bring in a computer run light desk as I have run out of hands to play the lights. Maybe next year I will have designed and recorded a light show.

 

LICENSING and PERMITS

 

We have an events licence, a PRS licence.

 

As an active airfield we have public liability insurance, but we have increased the amount to take into account the people attending this event.

 

Entry is by ticket only and they are checked for validity and guests are entry stamped, with normal ink and UV ink.

 

 

BANDS and ARTISTES

 

I agree that it is going to be a bit of job to get all these guys onto the stage on time and working. The sound checks will really only apply to later evening bands, as some groups are quite small.

 

We run the event also to encourage local people to take up music and promote themselves, as some have been quite shy about their talents.

 

These will probably be the ones we give the second small stage to, and for some it will be their first appearance in public.

 

I take on board everything that you have all said, and I am extremely grateful for that. I really would like to be able to take up the kind offers of help from Kerry, but that I do not have the funds available to be able to do this,this year.

 

I will read up again on The Event Safety Guide, to ensure we are in line with what is required and as you quite rightly said if I don't know what I'm doing 100%... I just won't do it!

 

And finally if any of you are in the area on Saturday 23rd July, you are very welcome.

 

Have a look at www.flyingpigfestival.co.uk ( NB all the photos are from previous events and safety has moved on since then ! )