what to get for small theatre group?

[chrisw92]

Hey, although I have only just registered I have been looking through this forum for a while now and would like to ask you all...

 

Okay some background info first: I voluntarily work as "the sound guy" for a small local children's theatre group and have noticed that the wireless microphones are starting to behave badly, as in they are basically pointless to use as the quality is worse than if the group just shout through a blow horn. these are those sennheiser basic lapel ones [FreePORT, if its any use] the group had gotten around four years ago. Because of their glitchy-ness that has started to happen (fresh batteries go in every performance so that's not the problem and the audio cables/mixer etc work fine) I fear its down to "old age" and they won't last much longer.

 

This is a big problem as some of the children are really quiet, you can't even hear them from the second row never mind the back of the hall. So microphones are a must and the group owners have asked what they would need to buy to (in their words...) "make it sound good, like a proper performance". And that is where I am stuck, I have a background in studios not live sound so I don't really have a clue, so I really need you help. As there is no patchbay in the hall the microphones have to be wireless with the receivers being able to be placed at the other side of the hall... I'm unsure to the size of the room but here is a picture of it (the sound stuff is placed right behind where the picture was took, the hall is a lot bigger in real life 150+ seats):

 

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/4861/28339380.jpg

 

The group only has just under £1000 for the whole budget and even less for the sound

 

 

Any help would be much appreciated.

[Andrew C]

Can you confirm whether it is the microphone, or the wireless part causing problems? The microphone capsules are subject to quite a hard life. On the other hand, unless something has changed, the wireless side shouldn't deteriorate (except perhaps battery contacts?). Changes could be introducing something that interferes, or a new neighbour with wireless kit.

 

How many sets are you running concurrently? £1000 won't go very far if you do need to replace the systems I'm afraid.

[chrisw92]

thanks for the quick reply.

 

I can't unfortunately, well not until next Tuesday. But I'm sure its the actual wireless systems as the LED's keep blinking and changing channels (A-B) and for a performance sound check today they were placed on the stage... two, maybe three meters away from the performers and signal lights still blinking, horrid noise etc. I swapped all the batteries and made sure that the connections were good.

 

 

 

I have just been looking at the AKG WMS 45 Perception Wireless Presenter System, basic but four of them would be around £800, that seems okay?... who am I kidding, its all gobbledygook to me.

[willdoweuk]

What is the precise problem you are having with the sound coming from the mics? Could it just be a range issue? Perhaps using external antennas run next to the stage with some bnc cable would help?? Have you tried testing the actual lapel mics going straight into the desk to see if they're the problem? And maybe for a stage that size some shotguns would be a good idea too?

[themadhippy]

But I'm sure its the actual wireless systems as the LED's keep blinking and changing channels (A-B

perfectly normal if its a diversity system.

[chrisw92]

What is the precise problem you are having with the sound coming from the mics? Could it just be a range issue? Perhaps using external antennas run next to the stage with some bnc cable would help?? Have you tried testing the actual lapel mics going straight into the desk to see if they're the problem? And maybe for a stage that size some shotguns would be a good idea too?

 

Its hard to explain, when a audio signal does get picked up it produces a sound as if you have plugged a microphone into a guitar distortion on an amp and cranked it up but having the volume really low.

 

range is not (well definitely should not be) the issue as stated in my previous post about the systems being on the stage during a performance dress rehearsal.

 

also as stated in my previous post I have not had the chance to yet and next Tuesday would be my next chance.

 

shotgun mics? I would love them but I only have £1000 you know, and the lack of a patchbay/multicore.

 

 

 

If its any help we currently use four lapel microphones, and a normal vocal microphone for the narrator (runs fine, using a different system. some Sure one I think). but only a maximum of three are running together.

 

 

perfectly normal if its a diversity system.

Is it? they never used to do that as much before. its like continuous now, and also the signal lights (totally on and off, not how much signal)

[Alec]

Here's another thought - though not sure if your systems allow you to vary their frequencies. Is it possible that the transmitter and/or receiver frequencies have been adjusted so that, either the tx doesn't match the rx, or that you're now getting intermodulation problems that you didn't have before. What do you get if you have only a single tx & rx pair turned on at a time? Does each tx & rx pair misbehave when used individually?

[chelgrian]

What is the precise problem you are having with the sound coming from the mics? Could it just be a range issue? Perhaps using external antennas run next to the stage with some bnc cable would help?? Have you tried testing the actual lapel mics going straight into the desk to see if they're the problem? And maybe for a stage that size some shotguns would be a good idea too?

 

'FreePort' are Sennhesier's budget range and are actually a rebadged Trantec and don't support external Antenna.

 

Firstly the OP should make sure each system is set to a different frequency. I know it sounds silly but you will get all kinds of wacky things happening if they aren't.

 

Secondly on the front a Freeport receiver there are 4 green RF level LEDs. With a single transmitter and receiver powered up get someone to walk around the stage area with the transmitter while you watch the LEDs. From experience with these sets if you have two solid LEDs all the time and three most of the time then it's not likely to drop out.

 

Once you've done this with one system try adding extra ones at the same time. Theoretically you should be able to run four FreePorts at once but I don't know how good their filtering is so if this actually works properly or not.

 

If all the RF is fine then look at the lapel mics themselves. Lapel mics are extremely fragile and it's very likely that horrible noises can be caused by broken cables. Mics of the quality of ones supplied with the Freeport can be bought for around 30 pounds.

 

There is also the issue of placement, for theatre mics on the lapel really don't work very well because people tend to move their heads. You generally get better gain before feed back if you mount on the hairline using narrow elastic through the hair. If you are careful the mics can be virtually invisible.

 

Sennheiser's actual range starts with the Evolution 112 G3 at around 500 pounds. Then there is the entire sub issue of requiring a license for channel 38 mics and professional quality channel 69/70 mics being less readily available now that channel 69 is being taken out of use.

 

In the end and to be brutal you can't amplify what isn't there, you can't make 'it sound like a proper performance' unless you've got something to reinforce in the first place. The group needs to understand this as you will likely get it in the firing line if they shell out lots of money and don't get the results they are after.

[chrisw92]

Here's another thought - though not sure if your systems allow you to vary their frequencies. Is it possible that the transmitter and/or receiver frequencies have been adjusted so that, either the tx doesn't match the rx, or that you're now getting intermodulation problems that you didn't have before. What do you get if you have only a single tx & rx pair turned on at a time? Does each tx & rx pair misbehave when used individually?

 

I don't know what that tx & rx things are about (I must sound really stupid to you all, not my fault we don't deal with wireless in studios). But the systems have a switch [1-2-3-4] on both the transmitter and receiver and are all set up correctly, one system will work fine if ran by itself with no other transmitters or receivers on, for a short distance (which is what I had to end up doing for this rehearsal).

 

 

 

 

From experience with these sets if you have two solid LEDs all the time and three most of the time then it's not likely to drop out

 

Correct, works fine

 

 

Once you've done this with one system try adding extra ones at the same time. Theoretically you should be able to run four FreePorts at once but I don't know how good their filtering is so if this actually works properly or not.

 

there comes the problems... there have never been these problems until these last few weeks. it all just used to work.

 

 

There is also the issue of placement, for theatre mics on the lapel really don't work very well because people tend to move their heads. You generally get better gain before feed back if you mount on the hairline using narrow elastic through the hair. If you are careful the mics can be virtually invisible.

 

I have been looking into this as the clothes are becoming more elaborate.

 

In the end and to be brutal you can't amplify what isn't there, you can't make 'it sound like a proper performance' unless you've got something to reinforce in the first place. The group needs to understand this as you will likely get it in the firing line if they shell out lots of money and don't get the results they are after.

 

couldn't agree with you more, my original post about them not being heard past the second row was a bit of an exaggeration.

[Andrew B.]

This sounds like one of those problems that would be solved in 2 minutes by someone experienced on site but is a bit harder over the internet! The Freeport system is basically fine for what you are doing, as long as you don't try to run more than 4 wireless channels simultaneously. I am fairly sure the problem is with your microphone or with your transmitter settings.

 

The Freeport receiver has a basic display but you need to look more closely at which lights are blinking. It's quite normal for the A/B lights to flicker back and forth (that's the diversity system working properly). Then to the left of those is a line of lights labelled "RF Level". Most of these should be lit up - really all of them if you are close to the transmitter. That shows that the transmitter can "hear" the receiver. If they are moving around a lot when the transmitter is stationary then you do have a problem. But it might be cause by interference on the channel rather than a fault in the equipment. So try changing channels on the receiver AND the transmitter to see if there is still a problem. The channel for the transmitter is changed by a small dial inside the battery compartment.

 

The other important light is on the far right and labelled "AF Peak". This is a warning light - when it comes on it is telling you that there is too much audio signal being sent into the system by the mic/ transmitter. This is bad and would cause the distorted noise you are complaining about. There are 2 reasons why this might be happening. One is that the microphone has broken, which is quite common as these particular ones are not terribly robust. The other is that the gain setting on the transmitter is turned up too high - this makes it too sensitive to the input signal from the little microphone. I doubt that this would have been changed by accident but you never know. The gain adjustment is also in the battery compartment of the Freeport transmitter bodypack, next to the channel setting knob I mentioned earlier. You could try reducing that by turning it anti-clockwise and see if it helps. My guess is that it won't and you will need a new mic instead. If you are buying a new mic for theatre use then you should think about getting a headset mic rather than a lapel mic - these will provide much better sound. There are some very expensive headset mics that work wonderfully and fortunately there are also some cheap ones that I'm told work pretty well - although I haven't personally used them. People on this forum talk about the cheap ones from CPC, I assume like this one:

http://cpc.farnell.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?SKU=MP33908

 

Or if you just want to replace the lapel mic to test it out you could go cheaper with one of these:

http://onecall.farnell.com/pulse/mic-500lj-beige/microphone-lavalier-lock-jack/dp/MP34259

 

Or even cheaper with one of these (but it doesn't have a locking connector):

http://onecall.farnell.com/pro-signal/mp33750/microphone-lavalier-beige/dp/MP33750

 

Andrew

[chelgrian]

I don't know what that tx & rx things are about (I must sound really stupid to you all

 

Not at all just don't start quoting studio jargon...Tx and Rx are just short hand for Transmitter and Receiver respectively because us live sound engineers are slow of brain and can't handle long words :)

 

, not my fault we don't deal with wireless in studios). But the systems have a switch [1-2-3-4] on both the transmitter and receiver and are all set up correctly, one system will work fine if ran by itself with no other transmitters or receivers on, for a short distance (which is what I had to end up doing for this rehearsal).

 

Now that is interesting. For reasons which are rather too tedious to go into if you have something producing a lot of interference then you may not notice it when only running a single mic. The actual effect on the mic would be to reduce the dynamic range and unless you were trying to measure it you probably wouldn't notice. The RF interactions you get when running more than one mic could push things over the edge in terms of break though into the audio signal.

 

So try and reject the hypothesis of the lapel mics themselves being broken through swapping the known working one from the system you ran at the rehearsal around. This also helps you to workout if you gain controls inside the transmitters have been set incorrectly.

 

Next power up one receiver with no transmitters powered up. Do you get any RF lights lighting up? If so how many?

 

If it is an RF issue then it could be as simple as a dodgy emergency light causing wideband interference in the venue. If you can narrow it down to an RF problem then what you want to do is get hold of some local amateur radio enthusiasts they'll probably regard it as a challenge to find the source...and have the equipment to do it.

[Ynot]

 

 

Basically you've already had pretty good advice from most replies here, but to summarise: (Apologies if this is a bit basic)

 

Check what frequency band you're using - from the manual you should be factory preset on Band E, the 863-865Mhz range, which is licence exempt in the UK. Using mics with any other band setting is a) illegal and b) may well cause other intermodulation problems.

 

Make sure each mic (transmitter = TX) and receiver (or RX) is set on a different channel setting (1 to 4).

 

If you are using literally lapel mics on performers' chests, then don't do that. Ideally invest in an over-ear or double-ear clip mic like the MP33908 linked to above which has a boom to position the mic head to the side of the mouth. Don't worry if it's not right by the mouth, most of the mics will get close enough to make a HUGE difference to lapel worn.

 

Follow the good advice about starting with 1 mic turned on, and adjust the input gain on your mixer (I usually set the channel slider at around -5 to 0 on the scale to leave some headroom) so you get a good level through the PA. A basic rule of thumb for simple systems is to wind up the input gain slowly til the system starts to ring then pull it back a couple of notches.

Then do each mic in turn and do the same, and when done, do the same thing but this time turning one mic on after another til all 4 are on and you don't get howl-round.

 

Finally, DON'T consider shotguns (my own personal opinion, shared I know with many here). Shotguns have a purpose, and being blunt, it's really NOT for picking up individuals or even choruses. If you want a general pick up mic, get a couple or three plate mics (plenty of info here on those).

 

But FINALLY, finally, get the little beggars to PROJECT!! Yes, I know - THAT old chestnut.

[J Pearce]

Is there a building close by that may have started using radios? Or a new bit of kit (wireless video sender, new fridge, anythin really) that could be kicking out radio noise and hence upsetting your radios?

It might be worth taking the sets elsewhere to narrow it down to kit or environment.

[chrisw92]

Is there a building close by that may have started using radios? Or a new bit of kit (wireless video sender, new fridge, anythin really) that could be kicking out radio noise and hence upsetting your radios?

 

I don't think so, there isn't even wireless internet. And I can't check as the closest buildings are residential houses.

 

 

 

Thank you very much for your help everyone I will try all the suggestions next time I use the microphones, I thought it was just them slowly dying (as they don't look that they would last long to begin with) but it may be that they are fine, which will save the group a lot of money....

 

 

I will post back my results next time I use the microphones, If these suggestions don't solve the problem I will create an new reply post in this topic. If things work out I will simply edit this post so that the topic does not go back to the top of the forum. you people have been really friendly and helpful, so once again thanks.

[paulears]

I have some old kit I bought in the 90s, and they still work just as well as they did when new - with radio systems there are some common problems that happen on kit of any price.

 

If all of your equipment work fine on their own, but the problems arise when you use multiples, as long as you've confirmed they are all working on different channels, one fault can be that one, or maybe more transmitters (which get the most abuse) have become wide band - the filtering they usually apply to the output having failed - maybe just simple dry joints caused by dropping - or maybe even dropped down the loo, dried out and not owned up to. This dodgy one is then causing problems to the others either side of it's operating frequency. Check it by starting with one system turned on. If it works fine, turn on number two. Do they both work fine, then the next and so on. At some point, your problem will start and you will have tracked down the dodgy transmitter.

 

It is possible that a similar problem has happen with the receivers, but usually this results in the channel it's working on becoming 'deafer' - signal strength being reduced by the transmitter packs on channels either side, getting close to the receivers.

 

The microphone parts should be considered disposable.

 

It's very unlikely you have multiple faults, so methodical testing is needed, step by step, and then when you find the problem - step back and consider what you just did.

 

Mt Hippy mentioned that the A-B light constantly flash and this is normal. You have two receivers in each box, and the unit selects the strongest one - so switching is quite normal. However, if the receivers and transmitters are pretty close, then the receiver has bags of signal, so sometimes just don't bother to switch, there's no need. The fact they now do it, and didn't before may suggest low signal levels, again pointing to problems with the packs. Questions to check. Have they been abused, fiddled with, soaked in sweat and/or water, and is the aerial actually attached to the circuit board inside? All these things can cause problems.

 

Stage edge boundary mics, and yes - shotguns can work - BUT if you want VOLUME - forget them, that's not what they're able to do. They can make the stage sound a bit louder - great for a straight play - but if the problem is the relative volume between different performers, then this ratio remains the same with any for of distant miking - they amplify the quiet ones and the loud ones - so end result is still you can't hear the quiet ones because the loud ones drown them out. Only personal miking can fix this - or simply make them project.