finallyaname Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 Hi all, Newb here and not in the industry! I'm in a Church in West Manchester and we're looking at getting our sound system revamped - basically new everything (Inc hearing loop) apart from the leads from the desk to the stage and monitors. Its not a massive job - think more reasonable size hall rather than parish church. We've got a couple of companies that we're approaching for quotes, but being an avid member of some car forums I thought I'd approach somewhere like this and see if there's any companies that you guys would recommend (Or not as the case may be!)? We're not a big church so have a somewhat limited budget, and dont want to end up throwing money at a company that just talks the talk and doesnt supply a reasonable system. Thanks in advance!Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerry davies Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 Wigwam are up your way, do a lot of churchy type installs and I can personally recommend them. http://www.wigwamacoustics.co.uk/ Otherwise take a look around, get as much advice from differing sources and take your pick. We can't see the venue and specific recommendations on which speakers etc will be personal to our preference and might not suit the space itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finallyaname Posted July 5, 2011 Author Share Posted July 5, 2011 Ta for that - I'll add them to our list! Tbh it's more decent installation firms like that that I'm after as I'm nowhere near technical enough to go into spec lists, etc... I just plug a lead in and play chords! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Lewis Posted July 5, 2011 Share Posted July 5, 2011 Hopefully, you will have a pretty good idea of what you need? This doesn't have to be a long list of gear, but a fairly well thought through spec of features, capabilities and performance. The danger in "getting a quote" is that you will have several firms offering several completely different systems with a price tag that varies by up to a factor of 10! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finallyaname Posted July 5, 2011 Author Share Posted July 5, 2011 Aye, we've got an idea. We know how many channels we need, what sort of output were looking at, etc, it's just a case of finding a decent reasonably priced company to do the job. It's all to easy to just pick some names off google and go with a cowboy if they talk a good case! The main problem we have is that we have no-one with any real technical knowledge on that side of things to confirm that what someone is saying makes sense, hence asking for company recommendations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Lewis Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 .....hence asking for company recommendations. OK - give Dan Dawson at Technical Stage Services (Leeds) a ring. He understands the church market pretty well, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonTheSoundMan Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 I'm currently in the process of installing our church system. Get quotes, I also recommend asking for an acoustic survey. The survey will let you know if you either need to have a distributed system, which is lots of loudspeakers in the room, which you need to do if the room is very reverberant, or if you can get away with two high powered loudspeakers. If you're rooms acoustics are ok, with reverberation below 2.5-3 seconds, and you can get decent coverage, you should be ok to have just the two loudspeakers. Then you will need to find the right loudspeakers for the room, which the installer should be able to do for you. My Victorian church that seats 250 people has a RT60 (reverberation time) of 1.2 seconds at around 300-800Hz in the worst positions, having the good loudspeakers with the correct directivity and placement means intelligibility is not a problem. Budget is about £4k, having two high powered loudspeakers (Nexo PS10) in the main nave is better than having 6 or 8 cheap loudspeakers distributed around the room that are not all time aligned, as they tend to make the church feel anechoic, which doesn't feel natural and is tiring. Set yourself a budget. Buy professional gear, they are workhorses and should last you at least 20+ years. I've seen too many church installations where they have used hi-fi gear or prosumer gear like Mackie, Behringer etc. Our Faculty has been sent and currently awaiting approval. Get the Faculty done ASAP if you require one, they will take 2-3 months and you wont be able to do any works until it is approved. You will need one if you're going to be screwing loudspeakers to walls for example or spending over £6k. For £4k, we are having a total new install. Buying second hand gear from SSE Audio in Redditch, we get equipment that is a year or so old, has been well looked after and maintained, but is 1/3 cheaper than buying new. It will be a fully automated system, using two Shure automixers (SCM810E), BSS Soundweb 9088iis DSP that will run the system, and Nexo PS8/PS10 and Lab Gruppen amps. We also have a rack mounted Intel Xeon computer that can configure or give manual control over the Soundweb, which then can remotely logged in via laptops, iPad's or even my iPhone so it can be controlled while I'm sat in church. Soundweb will also have presets and master volume via a wall mounted controller for the whole system so anyone can control it. Buying new, one set of the PS10's loudspeakers and their controller would be just under £4k. Soundweb will do all delays, EQ's, limiters, mixing and any other processing. There will be no mixing console, graphic EQs etc to confuse anyone or for someone to fiddle with. Wigwam will always have ex-hired gear for sale. Hire companies turn over their hired stock every 1-2 years. I look for gear that has been used for corporate or install jobs. If it has been used for touring they tend to get bashed around a lot. Really worth thinking about in my honest opinion if you have a tight budget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finallyaname Posted July 6, 2011 Author Share Posted July 6, 2011 Fantastic replies, cheers! Faculty isn't a problem as were Independent Methodist and therefore pretty much look after ourselves. We were budgeting around 3.5-4k all in, Inc labour so we should be able to get something decent for that by the sounds of it. Hadn't thought about an acoustic survey as we've always just run 2 loudspeakers, but tbh for the last couple of years most of the sound has come from our monitors (wharfdale evp series). Neither of the 2 companies we had down previously mentioned doing one either! At the moment we've got wigwam, technical stage services and PAS in Merseyside to contact, other than the 2-3 we already have. Hopefully that should give us a good idea. All that said, it might all be being blown out of the water as we've just heard we're 15k short on the funding for a rewire and central heating overhaul... Ah well! Might just be a new mixer for now so that we can at least get some sort of hearing loop working! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonTheSoundMan Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 All that said, it might all be being blown out of the water as we've just heard we're 15k short on the funding for a rewire and central heating overhaul... Ah well! Might just be a new mixer for now so that we can at least get some sort of hearing loop working!If you're happy with the two stick with just two. Get the best you can afford that suit the programme material and room. An installer worth their salt will model the room and loudspeakers using a computer anyway. Usually best to get the survey if you have a difficult room to work with, i.e. a 17th century church that is all stone. It's a hard one. We've just had to spend £11k on disabled access. We are CofE, and have to pay £40k quota every year to the Diocese. We managed to find the money somehow. If the building is used for other business than religious purposes, then have a look at getting grants. If it doubles up as a community centre for example someone like the Lottery may give you something. Lottery and many other wont give grants if it is just a church, unless it is a listed building. If the cables are in place, shouldn't take an electrical installer no more than a day or two. On my soapbox now. We have had many quotes, most were companies recommended by the Diocese. Most wanted to charge between £800 - 1.2k to get a builder in to put up a pair of loudspeakers, and electrical installer around £2k for them to install all the cables and electronics. Even had quotes where the installers wanted £100 a night to stay in a hotel, but they lived 10 miles away. I did my homework and have visited churches to see their new sound systems. Some churches paid more to have the system installed than buying all the equipment, fixtures and fittings. Diocese still recommend these people, wonder how many have been ripped off, or that I should do church installation for a living rather than sound engineering. One church has over £2m in their bank and has the worst system I have ever seen. Another spent £250k on loudspeakers alone and is the most amazing install I have ever seen. Lucky for some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timsabre Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 On my soapbox now. We have had many quotes, most were companies recommended by the Diocese. Most wanted to charge between £800 - 1.2k to get a builder in to put up a pair of loudspeakers, and electrical installer around £2k for them to install all the cables and electronics. Even had quotes where the installers wanted £100 a night to stay in a hotel, but they lived 10 miles away. Electrical installation in Church of England buildings is a minefield of specifications which can make contractors charge a premium. For example we were issued a document which said all wiring (electrical and audio) had to be done with "minimally insulated cable" (by which of course they meant MICC/pyro, not bare wires). It took a lot of persuasion to get proper audio cabling approved. The OP is fortunate being outside all of that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.