Sound setup in school hall/theatre

[Elliott]

Looking for some advice as to how to improve/modify/upgrade our existing PA in the main school hall. The space is very much multi-purpose, and is used daily for assemblies, main school performances three times a year, and smaller performances year round. Ideally, we want a solution that will suit all occasions, ensuring that there is sufficient power in the system to be able to support large musicals and bands. Our existing system is as follows:

2x Tannoy V12 main FOH speakers

4x Tannoy V8, 2 used 1/2 way down the auditorium to support the V12s, and 2 used on stage as foldback

All speakers are flown

Amplification is:

1x Crown XTi 1000 for the V12s

2x QSC GX3 for the V8s

 

As purhasing goes, an LD system of 2x LDEG152A, 2x LDEG122A with fliying hardware and 2x 15" LD subs. Would this give a significant improvement over our current system? Is there an alternative package someone would suggest? Is our current equipment actually fit for purpose, or could it be with a small(ish) amount of money spent on it?

 

All suggestions and feedback greatly received!

[tomo2607]

Just out of curiosity... What is happening to the old set up?

[Shez]

What problems do you have with the current system? I can see it being a bit thin on the bottom end if you're trying to put bands through it so adding some subs would certainly help there. As with all these things though, first identify what the problems are and then work out how they can be resolved. And only after that start looking at specific bits of kit.

 

Things to consider:-

 

Coverage - is it fairly even right around the hall? Is sound getting to where you don't want it to be (e.g. on stage, causing feedback issues)? The V12s have 90^o conical dispersion - does that suit the space? Would something with a narrower pattern suit it better? Are all the boxes mounted in the best locations for them?

 

Volume - is it loud enough to cope with what you want to put through it?

 

Quality - How does it sound? Are the delays actually delayed? An LMS might be a good addition to do the crossing over if you're adding subs and providing the necessary delays, EQ, limiting (important in a school!) etc. Your XTi can of course do some of these things already.

 

I don't have personal experience of the LD speakers you mention but I have a hunch they may not be a significant improvement on the Tannoys.

[boatman]

If you have some money to spend, you should also consider the current infrastructure. How many mic lines do you have from the stage to the control position and how many stage returns? Do you have permanent comms cabling installed? A little money spent on either (or both) of those might make more of an improvement than changing or supplementing the speakers and amps.

[paulears]

I really like the 'Tannoy sound' - I'd agree that the only thing missing is going to be the bottom end. In fact, it's a damn fine installation for a school hall - that many people would die for!

[Elliott]

The old setup would be retained and used elsewhere in school or used as a portable rig.

 

Coverage- the aim of the V8s midway down was to give better coverage, as they and the V12s are about 30cm from the ceiling. Seating is a retractable tierd setup. Would some photos help to give an idea of size and position?

 

Volume- at present, the speakers can cope with most things, but if pushed like they are in our large shows the quality appears to decrease. I don't actually know if any of the Crown setup menus have been adjusted since install!

 

Quality- as above, no delays have been set-up. Could you suggest a suitable LMS unit?

 

Lines and comms wise, we have 16 mic and 16 tie lines, 8 to either side of the stage. Tie lines also go back to the amps, and there are 6 direct lines to the amps. We have 4 comms sets, with 1 port at the control desks and 2 either side of the stage

[boswell]

We have the same setup in our 410 seat theatre with the addition of 2off V15S subs.

They can be deafening if turned up so unless you have a VERY big main hall I'd just improve what you have with a LMS and a sub or two. Spend the money on some thing else.

 

On the other hand, I can give the V8s and V12s a good home if required :D

 

Edit

If the quality seems to decrease when pushed then it's probably because of the lack of subs and the V12s have to do all the work.

Try the Tannoy LMS, it's matched to your speakers and all the crossover points are easily adjustable, we use a TDX2 but that has been superseded by later model.

[Elliott]

We have the same setup in our 410 seat theatre with the addition of 2off V15S subs.

They can be deafening if turned up so unless you have a VERY big main hall I'd just improve what you have with a LMS and a sub or two. Spend the money on some thing else.

 

On the other hand, I can give the V8s and V12s a good home if required :D

 

Edit

If the quality seems to decrease when pushed then it's probably because of the lack of subs and the V12s have to do all the work.

Try the Tannoy LMS, it's matched to your speakers and all the crossover points are easily adjustable, we use a TDX2 but that has been superseded by later model.

Has it been replaced by the TDX1? If so, would that be suitable for a 6 speaker system being only 2 in and 6 out?

[boswell]

TDX1 is a 2 in 4 out controller, so it would do the V12s and your subs when you get them but not the sidefill V8s.

You need a 2 in 6 out controller, The TDX2 seems to have been replaced by the SC1 but it's a mite expensive.

You might have to look for other manufacturers, all the crossover data is available on the Tannoy site for the speakers

so it will be easy to set up a 3rd party LMS.

[paulears]

I think before you do anything, you need to get somebody in to listen to what you have and make sure it's set up properly - as Boswell said - these can be very loud - so you are either expecting ear shattering levels, or something is adrift - and I'd bet something is wrong. It's quite common for people to tweak systems to try and squeeze extra bottom end out of systems that just don't have it, and this really impacts on the sound.

 

You will have to spend big bucks to better what you have, and breaking it up to use as separate boxes is such a waste.

[Elliott]

Thanks Boswell, I'll get searching!

 

As far as I know, the amps have been left on defaults setup wise since they were installed a year ago. If there's anyone in the Leeds area that would be able to give me and the performance technician a more experienced set of ears, drop me a PM and there may well be a pint or two in it for your troubles! (I have the authorisation of the tech to post this, and it will be he purchasing the alcohol not myself ;) )

[Andrew B.]

As others have said, the obvious "problem" with your good system on paper is the lack of subs. Sort that out and make sure it is installed correctly and then it should be absolutely fine for school rock bands.

 

You might want another couple of monitors too for larger bands. And some acoustic treatment of the hall would probably be A Good Thing, if it's a typical hall.

 

What mixer do you have?

[Elliott]

We've got a Yamaha IM8 40 for the larger events, and just a small MG16 FX for the small stuff. I tend to use the 01v96 from the recording studio though if I can get my hands on it!

 

Monitor wise we actually have the performance techs Celestion SR1s (x4) and if the worst comes to the worst we also have a couple of Pro Sounds.

 

On the acoustics front, the hall is reasonably dead, with a suspended ceiling and black wool serge drapes down both sides it's not too bad. I'll post a few photo's next week when we're back in.

 

 

 

Would another XTi 1000 and a set of 15" subs fit the bill do you think? That way we could use 1 XTi for R, and one for L, using the inbuilt DSP. This would however leave the V8s receiving full range, so then comes back the option of a system controller.

[dylan-penguinmedia]

I would be looking at the XTi2000 for subs, maybe even the 4000 depending on which subs you choose to give you a bit of headroom - the XTi range is relatively inexpensive, and the price jump from model to model might be something you could gently squeeze into a budget. Depending on what you were looking at spending on an LMS, you may even be able to afford another XTi 1000 to run delays and link all 3 amplifiers using HiQNet and Band Manager, doing the job of an LMS for you, and leaving you a spare amp that was on the delays for a spare, or monitor duties, or elsewhere in the school.

[paulears]

I remembered this topic yesterday while in a school. 2 12" yamaha's (with jack sockets) inset in the pros wall, with the backs open to the stage - as in, just sitting in a hole! They were plugged into a yamaha music products mono mixer amp, of which the school had at least 3. They'd hired in an LX7, and intended using this for their main PA. I found a proper 19" rack Yamaha amp in a store, just off the stage - which worked fine - once I hacked off the 1/4" jacks from the speakers and used the terminal posts. This amp had been removed because it didn't have jack sockets on the speakers, making wiring something they'd been told needed an electrician because there were wires! Counter this with the school with decent Tannoy kit that they deem not good enough!