SimonTheSoundMan Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 I'm busy sourcing, scrounging and designing a PA system for my local church (St Chad's, Coseley in the West Midlands). Trying to keep equipment, accessories and install under £2.5k. Asked around and have had some decent equipment donated. Three Shure SCM810E's (almighty chuffed about!), a Bosch/Philips conference system, lots of 100V loudspeakers that will find use in side chapels etc. Plenty of decent Shure and Clockaudio mics. Was given a Sennhesier SZI 1015 which is an odd one. I'm trying to find a decent solution for the main loudspeakers and amp setup. Coverage will need to be 15m x 15m, speakers flown at 4m from an arch. Budget is £1,500. Majority of sound is reinforced speech, and they would like to use keys, play CD and mic a grand piano all at moderate loudness, but not too loud. Was looking at a pair of 1 year old used Nexo PS10's (£600 each) and an amp, but that leaves no budget for the TD Controller. Instead, Two PS8's (£450), PS8 TD Controller (£340), and an amp to match. Do you guy think the PS8's will be ok? Dispersion and small discrete size is perfect. Never used PS series, only Alpha, Alpha-E and Geo-Ds, unsure if the 8's will have enough grunt. They are looking to invest more in the next year or so so, a second set of PS8's on a delay further down the church or some other makes as a side fill is a possibility, also to do all the finishing touches like more amprack gear and new radio mics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Lewis Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 Will your church need a Faculty to install this equipment? If so, the visual impact will be considered particularly important, and PS8s may look neater than PS10s. From a vocal reinforcement viewpoint, there isn't too much in it, but you'd be wise to check directivity and coverage of each model first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonTheSoundMan Posted June 14, 2011 Author Share Posted June 14, 2011 Still consulting for a faculty. Faculty is the prime reason why I'm looking at small loudspeakers. As for amps, they have some Yamaha PC3301N, Crown Macro Tech 1200 and 600, Crown CE200 for sale within budget if I was to go for PS8 system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Lewis Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 OK, I presume you are checking with Worcester Diocese's technical advisor as to what usually gets through the DAC?They won't care two hoots as to whether you have a Skytronic 100W amp or a three phase welder driving the loudspeakers if it cannot be seen. They will be particularly concerned about visual impact, running cables so that they are not seen and do not cross / drill through / damage any architectural important building fabric. I find Canford's reduced diameter speaker cable quite good for this.It helps to get your church's architect to say he's happy, and most don't like the line of an arch to be "broken". The SZI 1015 isn't too much use on its own, you need the SI 1015 modulator as well, and as many receivers / neckloops / earpieces / stethoscopes as might be needed. IR ALS sound better than AFILS, but are expensive and are pretty much line of sight, which isn't good when the parishioners kneel to pray! Simon (Technical Advisor to Derby Diocese) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonTheSoundMan Posted June 15, 2011 Author Share Posted June 15, 2011 I could do with another opinion on where to place the loudspeakers. http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2670/5835957487_ba10f98d12_z.jpg I have though 2/3 the way up the front arches, near to where the doves appear in the image above. Ideally would be a cluster in the middle, but a faculty would never allow that. Flown from eyebolts. PS8's I believe only need one bolt+safety bond? http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5191/5835962909_c38f665489_z.jpgIMG_5486 by simonhowes, on Flickr They would be visible from most places in the church. http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2704/5836515618_fddab9ec3b_z.jpgIMG_5490 by simonhowes, on Flickr http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2686/5836509352_de6bc64a1e_z.jpgIMG_5484 by simonhowes, on Flickr http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3280/5836521426_ed02f257c0_z.jpgIMG_5496 by simonhowes, on Flickr http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2674/5836514472_cbac6ab9ac_z.jpgIMG_5489 by simonhowes, on Flickr Equipment rack would sit to the left of the church next to the organ, behind the Walsingham Shrine. http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5143/5836524044_b3b1888171_z.jpgIMG_5543 by simonhowes, on Flickr With old heating ducts nearby where cables can cross from one side to the other. http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3642/5835976589_65db1909f7_z.jpgIMG_5544 by simonhowes, on Flickr http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3077/5835977749_2ba26ef9b2_z.jpgIMG_5547 by simonhowes, on Flickr The old equipment. http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2590/5836648100_8e7b949afc_z.jpgIMG_5504 by simonhowes, on Flickr The Realistic amp is a new addition that I found in an emergency when the installed amp died a couple of months ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revbobuk Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 I don't have time for a long response just now, but I have to say if I was doing a building like that, then trying to get away with a single pair of speakers would seem to me to be asking for trouble. If, as you say, mostly speech, then the old-fashioned way - loads of low level, carefully time-aligned short columns - has an awful lot going for it. Treating it like a music venue, when you can't do the acoustic treatment to cut reflections, is just going to cause so many headaches - literally. I'd be really surprised if a single pair of Nexos is the best way to tackle this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timsabre Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 I don't have time for a long response just now, but I have to say if I was doing a building like that, then trying to get away with a single pair of speakers would seem to me to be asking for trouble. If, as you say, mostly speech, then the old-fashioned way - loads of low level, carefully time-aligned short columns - has an awful lot going for it. Treating it like a music venue, when you can't do the acoustic treatment to cut reflections, is just going to cause so many headaches - literally.I'd be really surprised if a single pair of Nexos is the best way to tackle this... You can't do loads of time aligned speakers for £1500 quid though. And lots of small non-time-aligned speakers, which I have seen in too many churches, just sounds awful. We have a single pair of speakers (Ramsas!!) at the front in our similar church and they work well and sound very natural. Getting them quite high up is important. Personally I would put the speakers higher up on the front face of the main arch near where the fancy brickwork starts and angle them inwards. If you put them where you are suggesting you won't cover the back without the people at the front saying it's too loud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonTheSoundMan Posted June 15, 2011 Author Share Posted June 15, 2011 I don't have time for a long response just now, but I have to say if I was doing a building like that, then trying to get away with a single pair of speakers would seem to me to be asking for trouble. This is in the thinking already. First step is to have a functioning system. The plan for the future is to move the loudspeakers to just below the statues and with a second delayed set further down the church, and some smaller loudspeakers like Evid's to fill for the side aisles. Re:They are looking to invest more in the next year or so so, a second set of PS8's on a delay further down the church or some other makes as a side fill is a possibility, also to do all the finishing touches like more amprack gear and new radio mics. I do have five Bosch LBC 3052/03 column speakers and four LBC 3410/01. I tried the columns as wasn't overly impressed, but I plan to use two of them on the sanctuary, and the smaller 3410's in one of the chapels. Good columns cost a lot of money, having many of them with delays and a multichannel amp isn't feasible. Most are 100V too, which I can't stand for obvious limitations with such syetems. I much prefer to have 4 PS8's rather than 8 columns. The room acoustically isn't bad. Some PS10's have come stock in white that are less than a year old and only used for conferences, and they have offered the two and a PS10 controller for £1,300. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Lewis Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 As I alluded to previously, part of what you can install depends on what the Diocese are happy to see in the church (which is why it's worth finding this out first), then you can address the issue of coverage etc. Although many architects used by churches will resist any change to the building or cluttering of architectural lines, you might be able to play on the fact theat the rear of each arch seems to have lighting fixtures in place - so perhaps there's an argument to put stuff on arches if you needed to? Also, it looks to be a Victorian build, rather than a grade II edifice with Norman stone columns... If two speakers are the only option, then placement under the statues is not entirely ideal but could be workable. I have, however, seen successful installations in many churches (approved by DACs / architects etc.) using small speakers (from d&b E0 or E6 to JBL Control 1) and aligning these in rows across the columns, so that a fairly low cost speaker management box can provide two channels of delay. Response is better than using columns, and with the right compact loudspeaker music groups can be accomodated OK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonTheSoundMan Posted June 15, 2011 Author Share Posted June 15, 2011 Where else would you suggest they should be located? I'm borrowing some test measurement mics and Ease soon so hopefully that will assist to find the best location. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i_hate_fisicks Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 I would have thought that reasonably high up on the 'proscenium' for want of a better word would be a good place. Higher than the hymn board, but not as high as the statues. PS8s are fairly unobtrusive, and it looks quite dark in there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonTheSoundMan Posted June 16, 2011 Author Share Posted June 16, 2011 Somewhere like this? http://www.audioguy.co.uk/files/images/CRW_0251.jpg If so, that's where I have had it planned all along. Red being the inside arch option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addoaddo Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 Why don't you borrow some wind-up stands and try the speakers in different location either with or without people in the Church. Church acoustics are very strange and often cannot be predicted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Lewis Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 The green box position (depending on how close to the chancel arch it goes) will suffer some degree of boundary condition loading and reduced coverage of pews in the north and south aisles (although you state satellites may be used there).The red box position may not be acceptable to your church's architect, or the DAC. That's why I keep coming back to the question - will the DAC sanction it? If you model the space in EASE, then a) good luck (!) and b) try and make sure the roof is correct and the surfaces are the right material. If you do get a functioning model, try a pair of speakers (such as small HKs, OHMs, Turbos etc.) on top of each of the six column capital to see how a distributed system might work. Make sure you model direct and reflected SPL and STI. You will of course know that measurement is another can of worms. As Sam Berkow was fond of saying, "anyone can get Smaart to draw pretty lines"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 Last week I heard the tiny Sennheiser K-array Lyzards - and wonder if something like these would work?http://www.proacousticsusa.com/Products/Frontsmall2010070963147.jpgWe were all very impressed, and they're so small that they'd be hardly noticeable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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