Basic Electrical Installations

[nickb12345]

Hi All

 

Please forgive me if this has been done before but I have spent most of the weekend searching here and the rest of the net, but I may have worn out my search engine voodoo and missed something. Most of the other topics on here are more for Temp installations and stage work. I'm looking more at the permanent installation side (in holiday park venues if it makes a difference?). If I have missed a topic or any info anywhere and you can point me in the right direction I would be very grateful.

 

Basically I am spending more and more time doing basic installations in my line of work and my employers have indicated there is scope for them to find some C&G type training courses for me. The problem I have is working out which course(s) to look at. While I appreciate it all comes down to competence, and I do consider myself competent to perform the work I do, they would prefer I had some paperwork to back that up - and seeing as they are paying I'm not going to say no.

 

I have already done a couple of 1-dayers in things like PAT Testing but am looking for something a bit more 'substantial' this time. I'm not looking to become a full spark and go wiring up houses, nor do I intend to go messing with gennies or heavy mains. But something that covers the basics would be nice.

 

I did find this course which (on the website) looked ideal - 4 days, £390, City & Guilds 17th Edition. But after further reading around here and a couple of other places I get the feeling this is part of something bigger and designed more as a follow up to something else?

 

Can anybody recommend anything or point me in the direction of any more info?

 

Thanks for your help.

 

Nick

[kerry davies]

Rick, this is a bit of a thing with me so bear with me here.

If you are going into fullscale industrial installation of electrical systems I would suggest that a bit more than a few one-day courses would be needed. Current practice appears to be delivery of one-day PAT course to non-practising electricians is common and few seem to have undergne the necessary initial assessment to allow them on the course.

 

I am a pedantic old git and have been an apprenticed industrial instrument mechanic as well as working and training on electrical stuff with BT for many years but I do not call myself an electrician. I am competent at temporary and generated power systems and have significant experience yet I get suitably qualified site electricians to sign off for me.

 

I would suggest thinking about something more substantial in the way of training in your case as you are working with hazardous, life-threatening systems in the public arena.

My opinion only, others will disagree.

[thebigcheese]

I get suitably qualified site electricians to sign off for me.

 

What qualification would that be? :)

[paulears]

If you want to be an electrician - the this old topichas some useful stuff. College, probably day release for a couple of years and you'll have the power to sign off people like Kerry (or my) work!

 

It does occur to me that as all funded or part funded qualifications are now attached to a new framework (NQF)then these City & Guilds qualifications are probably due for a facelift. If they're like other qualifications I'm involved with, the old ones can continue to run, but new signups need to be on the new framework - probably some poking about on the city and guilds website will help this one!

 

Also - just phone up your local college and ask them. None of the content is theatre-events stuff, and you have to use your own common sense to spot the similarities and differences - and tease out what rules are real, and what 'rules' are just domestic practice.

[nickb12345]

Sorry that was what I was trying to say - I have no intentions of becoming a fully qualified electrician, or signing off other peoples work. Far from it in fact.

 

However what I do do is basic things like putting in the odd circuit for feeding LED and effects units or projectors and AV kit, as well as bits of maintenance work on installed setups. Plus the usual array of putting plugs on kit and making up extension leads etc. Anything bigger gets contracted out.

 

Now I do appreciate it all comes down to competence, and I'm not going to touch anything I don't feel I'm competent with. All of the above I am happy that I know what I'm doing with already - but my employers are willing to pay for me to do a few courses to get that on paper - which I'm not going to complain about.

 

I'm not really looking for anything that is theatre/events related - just that covers the basics of electrical work as outlined above - but also has the potential to cover me in the future, and hopefully learn a few new things in exchange for a few days back at school.

 

Thanks for your replies however.

 

Nick

[paulears]

The link you had is for 'proper' electricians - so probably is the wrong one. City and Guilds do some other electrical programmes, but the snag is that few colleges deliver them, because not enough people want them?

 

To be honest, I'm not really sure there's much of a market for courses of this type, as most people can pick up these skills from people local to them, just by working. I'm sure that you could get these skills locally in double quick time, without the real need for a 'course'. I taught college kids, many of them luvvies and twirlies rather than technical how to put on plugs in two hours - it really isn't that difficult. I suspect you can already do these things and the idea that a piece of paper is important is a bit odd. What usually happens is that somebody just needs to provide the paper. I'm sure many BR members would be able to come to you, spend a day and then give you a certificate stating you have demonstrated competence in ...... This is, after all, exactly the same as the training providers do for these sorts of courses - you make sure they can do it, know the reasons behind practice and then state it formally.

 

If you're really keen to spend your employers money - I'd love to do it for you - seriously!

Paul

[Rax]

I'm not really looking for anything that is theatre/events related - just that covers the basics of electrical work as outlined above - but also has the potential to cover me in the future, and hopefully learn a few new things in exchange for a few days back at school.

Hi Nick, I sense that you don't want to go too deeply into these courses, but you are right to concerned over the need to protect yourself. You found a course that covers 17th Edition, City&Guilds 2382, but after that, you should also look at City & Guilds 2392 which should also permit you to 'sign off' simpler work. The ultimate in inspection and test is City & Guilds 2391.

 

This is probably not want you want to hear. However, there are a number of sparks working in Film & TV with C&G 2382 and 2391/2 etc. who drive around in BMW 7 series, have holiday villas in Spain (e.g. Lee on Sea) etc. It does no harm to have all the right qualifications when work in one's usual precincts dries up and one is looking further afield.

[PaulDF]

The C&G 2382 is basically a certificate that says you know how to navigate and use the big red book, don't expect any practical work in this course - it is as boring as reading the book from cover to cover and doing past papers. :(

 

It is probably worth your while seeing what courses your college has on offer.

[Piglet]

Hi Guys,

 

As an electrician of the "old school" C&G 2360 pts 1,2 and 3. I would take up the suggestion of seeing what your local college or training centre does as far as electrical courses go the old 2360 pt 1 was basic electrical installation which sounds to me like the kind of thing you are looking for. All three parts of the old course are now covered in 2 parts of a year each either 1 day a week or 2-3 evenings a week.

 

Hope this helps

Piglet

[bigclive]

I get the feeling the original poster is wanting to get a greater understanding of proper electrical installation procedure without going the whole hog with a complete electrical apprenticeship or long term training.

 

Two possibilities. You could actually go the whole hog and either do a complete apprenticeship, or if you don't want to leave your current employer and they don't have other fully trained staff to act as your mentor, then you will be able to pick a up a good basic understanding of traditional wiring from a well written DIY guide.

 

The training industry is out of control these days. A lot of the courses being presented are empty Powerpoint presentations given by people who's only skill is turning the projector on, pressing the spacebar and reading whatever appears on the screen. The 17th edition course you mentioned is probably part of a racket where existing electricians are forced to "update" their knowledge with existing knowledge re-bound in new terminology in order to be allowed to keep working in their lifelong trade. Ignore it unless you want to be presented with mindless twaddle interrupted briefly by limp sandwiches and punctuated with a patronising test that has the answers in the booklet they provide to make sure most people "pass" it.

[pumphouse]

Whilst I agree with many of the comments on the short courses for 2382 on the wiring regs, they do give you an understanding of the structure and application of the regs, and more imprtantly a piece of paper to say so.

 

I get the impression from the OP that the practical side of things is not a problem, but some back-up of the theoretical knowledge is what's needed. Being able to do cable sizing, loop impedance calculations, volt drop calcs and choosing the right stuff for the job at hand. 2382 will give you this, but yes it is dull, and you could teach yourself without aid of the projector-driiving moron at the front of the room. There are lots pf places that do these at reasonable costs however and you can get out of it what you put in to it.

 

Testing and certificating is another matter however and gets much more involved. Who certificates the work you do now (new circuit provision etc.)?

 

Jason

[Robin Pratt]

Whilst I totaly agree with the comments in Bigclive's last paragraph, it would appear, sadly, that in these days of blame culture and lawsuits, the lawyers and insurance companies, are rather keen on the mindless twaddle and the patronising tests, presumably because they don't understand any other definition of being competent!

[Paul TC]

A lot of the courses being presented are empty Powerpoint presentations given by people who's only skill is turning the projector on, pressing the spacebar and reading whatever appears on the screen.

 

 

You must have been on the same courses as me. PAT course I did some years ago is a csae in point, any question that was off script resulted in no answer. Purpose was to get one to Pass an open book exam, not to train one to perform PAT properly using knowledge gained on the course.

[bigclive]

Whilst I totaly agree with the comments in Bigclive's last paragraph, it would appear, sadly, that in these days of blame culture and lawsuits, the lawyers and insurance companies, are rather keen on the mindless twaddle and the patronising tests, presumably because they don't understand any other definition of being competent!

 

Indeed, and the insurance companies have effectively shot themselves in the foot by encouraging so much red tape that a very high percentage of skilled tradesmen have become disenchanted and chosen alternative career paths or emigrated. Most modern sites are now full of labourers doing dreadful electrical work and learning from their mistakes on an ongoing basis at the customers expense. (Or not learning from their mistakes as is often the case.)

 

The poetic justice is that most of these insurance companies have offices that were botched in this manner.

[Ian der Laan]

I am in a similar position to the OP. I am looking for a course to underpin theoretic knowledge without making the full (2 years at 2 nights a week) jump into role of electrician.

 

I actually thought that the 17th edition would be the perfect course to do this. Given that I work in a college and training is free made the idea more appealing still.

 

However, I have just been informed that the college do not accept applicants on the 17th edition (2382) unless they have previously completed the 2330 (level 2 or 3).