Zero 88 Jester 24/48 HELP

[tomo2607]

I apologise in advance for my naivety when it comes to lighting. I'm more of a sound man...

 

 

FAO Mods: I have put this in "Next Gen" as I felt it may apply more here than in lighting but please move it if you disagree

I work for a school that is putting on its yearly musical in December. I've been working at the school for 12 months and so missed the last musical. The usual restraints of budget and aged equipment apply. The school recently purchased a Zero 88 jester 24/48 to replace there pulsar 12ch preset desk. There lighting system is very basic consisting of the jester 24/48, demux and analogue dimmers. We have enough dimmers to run up to 48 fixtures however this rarely happens and we don't have or use any "intelligent" lighting so to speak of.

 

This year the school wish to hire in some lighting fixtures rather than use their old stock items. They have told me that last year they used various LED fixtures including "wash" units (similar to 4 parcans in one unit) as well as some individual floor cans. All units have RGB LED's for colour mixing. A lighting board was also hired last year to run this. We have the DMX relay packs to power them but im a little concerned that the new lighting board that the school has purchased wont be large enough to cope with the fixtures.

 

 

So here is my problem and please bear with me as I'm not too clued up on DMX...

 

The Jester 24/48 has up to 48 preset channels but can operate all 512 channels of DMX. Usually the desk is patched in a relative format (dmx1-ch1 dmx2-ch2 dmx3-ch3 etc). However with the LED's I'm expecting anything up to 6 ch needed for each fixture. So after 8 fixtures all of the 48 channels are used. This leads to my problem. The desk allows me to program memories and sub-masters using the 48 preset ch. I had hoped that I could program memories using the sub-master groups but this is not the case. Also I cannot call up a DMX channel to add to the memory unless it is assigned to one of the 48 preset channels. I have tried changing the channel patch after I have created a memory in the hope that the memory will still pick up on the DMX rather than the preset channel but alas it does not. When the channel is re-patched to a different fixture the programmed memory will still use the same channel and not the DMX.

I have also been told that hiring a lighting board for this event is not possible as they wish to use they were assured by the last technician that the new jester would be suiterble for future productions and events

 

So my question is... is there a way to use more than just 48 ch on the Jester 24/48? Such as virtual channels or way to create a memory using DMX rather than ch presets? I already know whilst writing this that the answer is more than likely found in the title of the lighting board (jester 24/48) however I thought it best to seek confirmation or possible solutions from people who have a better understanding of this than I do.

 

 

Thanks in anticipation

 

 

::Edited for clarification::

[Shez]

Without digging out the manual I can't say with absolute certainty, but I'm pretty sure you're going to be limited on that desk. Can you patch more than one DMX channel to a desk channel? That might be your only hope of being able to control a bit more. You've got 24 auxiliary buttons too but I don't think they'd be all that much use for LED fixtures unless you could get quite creative with their programming.

You'd want the ML48 for controlling anything more than generic fixtures as the vanilla 24/48 really isn't designed for that.

[jonathanhill]

They have told me that last year they used various LED fixtures including "wash" units (similar to 4 parcans in one unit) as well as some individual floor cans. All units have RGB LED's for colour mixing... We have the dimmers to power them...

Please do not plug LED kit into dimmers, they need to plug to hot power only.

[tomo2607]

Please do not plug LED kit into dimmers, they need to plug to hot power only.

 

Sorry, my mistake. I was refering to the relay packs supplied with the LED fixtures.

[Ynot]

I'm a little confused over that, though...

LED kit just needs hard power as a rule, and then stuff a DMX signal through them and voila.

What exactly were these 'relay packs'? A DMX relay to provide hot power? In which case that's pretty much a total waste of DMX channels, and also something extra that just isn't required....

[tomo2607]

Without digging out the manual I can't say with absolute certainty, but I'm pretty sure you're going to be limited on that desk. Can you patch more than one DMX channel to a desk channel? That might be your only hope of being able to control a bit more. You've got 24 auxiliary buttons too but I don't think they'd be all that much use for LED fixtures unless you could get quite creative with their programming.

You'd want the ML48 for controlling anything more than generic fixtures as the vanilla 24/48 really isn't designed for that.

 

Unfortunatley only one DMX channel can be patched to each preset desk channel. I have also found out that there may be an ML wing that can be used but im not sure if there still in production or if they were made obsolete by the ML 24/48

 

...A DMX relay to provide hot power? In which case that's pretty much a total waste of DMX channels, and also something extra that just isn't required....

 

Im going off the information ive been provided, but yes... the units are just that, a way to provide power to the LED fixture. Aparently they were supplied with the kit they hired last year, im not sure why it was done this way. There has been a large change over of staff since the last show, my self and the head of creative arts included, so all the info we have is from the existing drama teachers. One of which aparently "did the lights" for the last show...

 

As I have stated, Im not really a lighting person, so things such as the need (or not in this case) for a DMX controled power supply isnt something I've thought too much on.

 

So far the only thing I can do is match up DMX addresses on certain fixtures, but that would limit the design options... As a minimum this would provide and upstage and down stage wash using only 6 ch.

[TomHoward]

I'm also a school technician, and we have a Jester 12/24 (so we are even more limited in channels that you) as part of a smaller 'mobile' rig that we use outside of our main hall but I've seen rigs run off this including 12 dimming channels and many LED pars, whilst not with individual control, you can start grouping down to area etc.

 

I guess the very first question would be why the LED? If you've got 48 dimmer channels, that should be enough to throw up white cover and a few colour washes. (I'm no designer though).

 

Next - what LED fixtures are they? If you can get all matching fixtures this may make this a little easier. If they are 8 DMX channels, do you really need individual control of all 8 channels?

 

I leant this our to a local group who used the Jester to power 12ch dimming and a fair few LED pars - the LED pars were something like 6 channel, which was something like

 

1 Red intensity

2 Green intensity

3 Blue intensity

4 strobe

5 presets

6 more presets or similar

 

So really you only need individual control of RGB per fixture, things like Stobe could be grouped for the whole rig onto one fader, or missed off completely if you're not planning on using them. The Jester is useful in that it patches DMX channels to faders (rather than the more common Faders to DMX channels), so you can put a limitless amount of DMX channels onto one fader. So you could patch RGB for one area of stage onto three channels, RGB for another area onto another three, and then the Strobe for both areas onto a single fader - or just miss off the DMX channels you aren't going to be using completely.

 

There's also more you can do, although this really would be getting complicated - the Jester has a DMX IN, and when you program a memory, it actually saves all 512 DMX channels from the DMX IN - so if you could find another desk (something like a PC with a dongle) to program the show for you, you could take 'snapshots' of a wider desk and play them back via the Jester. (However - these channels only snap, they don't fade (something which isn't mentioned in the manual - thanks Zero 88), so you could only use these for things like the Colour variables, and keep Intensity channels (if the LED fixtures have them) on desk channels.)

 

However, leaving this aside, how many dimmed channels are you planning, so how many does that leave for the LED? With the 24-48, you could have 24 dimmed generic channels across the top row, and use the bottom 24 to give you 5 areas of LED RGB control, plus three faders left over for an overall LED intensity (just vary individual levels with the RGB control), Strobe, and one channel spare for any other effect you wanted.

 

Oh, and then of course you still have the Aux buttons - so the Aux button can re-assign the Flash button to be a different channel to the usual Flash concept, and it can hold as well - basically a switch for a DMX channel instead of a fader. You could use this for things like overall intensity instead, or the effects.

[tomo2607]

Thanks Tom, this has helped alot.

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I was unaware that you could use multiple DMX channels on one fader. I’ve been using the virtual jester to try and get my head around it and couldn’t seem to do this but I’m hoping this may be a glitch in the program. When assigning DMX to a fader it removes the previous ch patch??

 

As for other fixtures, we will be using very little to be honest, or at least that is what I have been told. Apparently there were just a few profiles for specials and gobo brake-ups for the last show. The rest was a combination of colour washes, a few minuets used as up lighters for the “jail scene” and some controlled items such as table lamps and a chandelier. Possibly up to 10 I would have thought. The rest will be LED for rear floods and stage wash

 

As far as the design goes, I have little input. It seems I am just a way to facilitate the needs and wants of the staff rather than to provide alternative suggestions.

 

 

The main reason for the use of LED's is that the dimmers are fairly old now along with the current cabling. Currently the venue within the school has 5 LX bars. Each bar has fixed sockets spread along it with the cabling running inside the bar. This then runs to the dimmer room where each bar is hard patched 1-1 2-2 3-3 etc... Working from upstage to downstage...

 

The bars have been there for over 15 years, or so I’m told, with very little maintenance carried out on them. Since my employment at the school last year I have tested the sockets along each bar to find that around half are not functioning. Also, according to the drama staff, an electrician was hired to fix the issues about 4 years ago and the problem was never resolved. Our school was on the list to be refurbished and the performance space was to be updated, but this has now been prevented due to our no illustrious leaders... As well as this the current lack of generic lamps, gels, and other bits means we actually have very little apart from 15 year old analogue dimmers and no money to do any thing about it...

 

 

 

Thanks again Tom. Ill confirm that the jester allows multiple DMX to fader and hopefully that will solve my problem

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MarkPAman]

Apologies if you already know this!

 

You can run all (or some) of your LED fixtures on the same address, and if they're the same type, and they'll all do the same thing. So you could do an overall wash with just 3 (or 4 or 5) channels. :)

[vinntec]

Oliver - I don't know where to start... The Jester 24/48 is about £1,000 worth (although school probably had a decent discount) and designed to operate conventional lanterns via dimmers, although as pointed out you could squeeze intelligent lighting in by using a block of channels with everything addressed the same (really only useful for colour washes) but obviously these desk channels can't be used for conventionals at the same time.

 

If you are talking about a show in December, I would start by finding out precisely what you have got by tracing everything through from end to end and making a complete inventory of what is available. What is the capacity of the power supply feeding the dimmers (if you have 48 dimmers, then a full load assuming 10A each is 480A) and how is it distributed between them? Are the dimmers hardwired to sockets in the rig, via a patch panel, or have sockets on the front (you can see there might be several reasons already why sockets on bars aren't apparently working!)? Next thing might be to check each dimmer channel - if they are hardwired you might need to plug a lantern into the socket and use the dimmer's test facility (if it has one) or use the Jester to provide the correct DMX channel. If they have sockets on the front, or have a nearby patch-panel, then obviously this is much simpler. So you now know how many dimmers are working, where they go, and what power feed you have. If the dimmers are Zero 88 and faults have been found then this is a good time to give their maintenance group a ring unless you have the skills to fix them yourself. If you have got all the dimmers working, or faults isolated, now is the time to trace cabling to the sockets and bars to see what is and what is not working. If you know how they are being fed, fixing these should be straightforward...

 

If you have got this far, what lanterns do you already have? Get them down and inspected. Are they worth getting back into fully working condition (many lanterns from the 1950s can still be useful with a little TLC, especially Strand patt 23, 123, 223, and 743)? If they look salvageable, do they need to have lamp fittings upgraded to take a more modern halogen lamp (seek advice if going this way if you are in uncharted territory) and are they an appropriate mixture of profiles, fresnel/PCs, and floods (and others including parcans)? If you have salvaged all you can, do you have a sufficient stock or are more required to make the rig useful?

 

Up to now all your are doing is getting the infrastructure into working condition and documented. Costs, if any, can be justified in the "must do" category, although will chew up lots of time so try and get some help using your contacts if you are a lone technician.

 

I have lit several musicals using only a conventional rig of 24 channels (most channels with 2+ lanterns each), although the stage in this case was quite small. You don't need to have LEDs or movers or scrollers if you don't need them and have a working rig. When you start discussing the December show with the Director, then you will be in a position to quickly say which requirements will need hiring, which are impossibly without a hired desk, and which can be met from existing rig possibly with a little hired upgrade. If you have fewer dimmers than 48, then you will know what you can tack onto your Jester easily.

 

That's my tuppence worth and what I think I would do if I was in your position. Good luck! Peter

 

 

[CatC]

I sort of skim read this, so I don't know if what I have to say will be any help to you at all. But I have a Jester 48, and used LED fixtures with it last week. If you have a Jester ML48 then it should be relatively easy to do. You can set all the fixtures to the same starting channel, assuming that you want them to do the same thing at the same time, and you can even 'daisy chain' them together, which will save DMX ports, something which schools, are often short of. The best thing about doing it with a ML48 is that you can get the starting channel to be something above 48, and you can run the LED's off the three wheels. I'm sorry if this doesn't help because it is so specific to the model of console.

[tomo2607]

Up to now all your are doing is getting the infrastructure into working condition and documented. Costs, if any, can be justified in the "must do" category, although will chew up lots of time so try and get some help using your contacts if you are a lone technician.

 

I have lit several musicals using only a conventional rig of 24 channels (most channels with 2+ lanterns each), although the stage in this case was quite small. You don't need to have LEDs or movers or scrollers if you don't need them... That's my tuppence worth and what I think I would do if I was in your position. Good luck! Peter

 

I'm currently working on an inventory of lanterns. However, as you've already hit upon, I'm the only technician for the performing and creative arts within the school, so progress is slow.

 

The main issue lies with the bars rather than any other aspect. The dimmer packs are a combination of various brands including Two zero 88. I've tested each output on each pack and all are working fine. The "lx bars" as such, then have between 8 and 15 ways per bar. Often very close together preventing any useful placement. The issue lies within the bar. Each way on the bar runs through the bar to the dimmers. They can then be "patched" as necessary. This means that the faulty ways on each bar can only be down to the cable run. I've checked and re-terminated a handful of runs that were damaged; this fixed a few of them. The problem now is that to get to the cabling for the other faulty ways I need to get "inside" the bar and inside the walls of the performance space. Each bar is fixed in place and for some reason is sealed at both ends. To make things even more annoying, the cable runs from each bar in some cases run the entire length of the main hall in no apparent order. They are hidden under floors, up and down walls and through the ceiling. So to replace the cable would be a large job.

 

Also, when I use the term "lx bar", in this case I'm referring to what seems to be modified scaffolding attached to the ceiling with sockets attached. The cable then runs from each socket, through the bar and is then, with no sense of direction or reason, run via walls floors and ceilings (containing asbestos I might add) to the dimmers.

 

I think the use of LED fixtures in past has been simply to avoid the task of repairing the current rig.

 

 

 

I sort of skim read this, so I don't know if what I have to say will be any help to you at all. But I have a Jester 48, and used LED fixtures with it last week. If you have a Jester ML48 then it should be relatively easy to do. You can set all the fixtures to the same starting channel, assuming that you want them to do the same thing at the same time, and you can even 'daisy chain' them together, which will save DMX ports, something which schools, are often short of. The best thing about doing it with a ML48 is that you can get the starting channel to be something above 48, and you can run the LED's off the three wheels. I'm sorry if this doesn't help because it is so specific to the model of console.

 

 

Thanks for the reply and advice, however I only have the standard 24/48 to play with, not the ML hence my issue :(

[J Pearce]

Where are you based? There may well be a blue room member local to you who could come and have a look for the promise of tea and a nice pack of biscuits.

[TomHoward]

Thanks again Tom. Ill confirm that the jester allows multiple DMX to fader and hopefully that will solve my problem

It certainly should - the Jester has a rather unconventional way of patching DMX channels to faders:

 

http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/206669_511403987380_222900118_336122_3298034_n.jpg

 

So in this image DMX channels 1, 2 and 3 are all following fader 1 - and DMX ch4 follows Fader 2. Doing this you should be able to combine or miss off all the unnecessary channels from the LED Pars, pair up the DMX channels of any fixtures that you are going to group anyway, and then put all the things like Intensity on one fader for the whole rig. You shouldn't need the ML anyway, as for RGB I'd probably still run off the channel faders.