dimmable mr16 led lamps

[AHYoung]

ive got a desire to replace a fairly large number of 12v 50w dicro lamps in a venue. One room has around 3 dozen lamps as house lighting driven off 3 dimmer chanels, its fine apart from the fact that the lamps are on full power all day and the electricity usage is an issue, and during events they often need to be run at 5 - 20% rather than off. its also remarkable how often they need replaced, Therefore a trully dimmable Led would be ideal. If only GU10 s are available, its possible to change the fixtures.

 

the parameters are...

 

smooth flicker free dimming to 0%

decent output with a Warm white colour

low consumption

50,000 hrs life

unit cost under a tenner

 

 

Anyone had actual experience with something, any sensible informed suggestions welcome, especially if youve actually been using something for a while...

[Dj Dunc]

A solution to this would be very interesting. I have a similar dilemma on a new tiny architectural install.

[rossmck]

There's a new (dimmable) generation of the Osram Parathom coming soon (should have my hands on some samples in a week or two to test the dimming of them)

 

BLV also make a 3100K MR16 but they're sill about £30 ea for the dimmable ones :-( - they are, however, pretty smooth and have a nice warm output

[musht]

Its not personal Alan, but have seen two horrifically underpowered exterior LED installs and one just horrific interior LED install in the last week.There appears to be some sort of hype that is creeping into normally sane people that makes them think that adequate lighting should no longer consume more than 3W a point...

 

I apologise in advance....

 

<Rant>

>replace a fairly large number of 12v 50w dicro lamps in a venue

 

First answer is to move to smaller halogen, 42W IR reflectives at a cost , 35W cheapies or the IR lower wattage equivs.

 

>3 dozen lamps...full power all day

 

Someone cheaped out at install, is whining at running costs and wants a cheap solution, it dosen`t exist.

 

>often need to be run at 5 - 20%

 

All of them or just exit ways?

 

>remarkable how often they need replaced

 

You have 36 of them in one room alone, without bulk relamping at fixed intervals MTBF will mean your always losing one or two.

 

>truly dimmable Led would be ideal.

 

It exists but at a price and complication.

 

>smooth flicker free dimming to 0%

 

Triac dimmable drivers used internally in lamps are fairly new, ones I`ve seen don`t go to 0% quietly.Some drivers can but they are of the din rail or box mounting variety.

 

>decent output with a Warm white colour

 

Not like the horrific interior saw with a pile of `cluster` 5mm cram cone MR16`s, coldness of colour temp indicated dire choice of LED or probably overrunning which meant they would only get colder before sporadically failing, my advice was to call me next time, before they flushed £3K away , not after.

 

Warm white is only close to halogen efficiency, thought of installing 5W halogen MR16s....

 

>low consumption

 

No problem, presume substantially lower light levels will be no problem either.

 

>50,000 hrs life

 

You had some sales flyers in the door recently.... what they may have missed out.

Accelerated tests on the best brands of LEDs have indicated a 30% light depreciation at 50K hours, these generally assume the LED running in ideal conditions.

They also miss out the depreciation curve which may see 10% dissapearing in the first 2K hours.

 

>unit cost under a tenner

 

that will be the Norfolk & Way 5W LED MR16 available for £5.99 from selected ebay vendors.

 

A decent Cree equipped cool white MR16 might pull 6W and give you a rough equivalent to a narrow 35W halogen, even in quantity will still be north of 20 quid a piece.

 

>actually been using something for a while...

 

Specialised in LED lighting since 2000, does that qualify as a while?

 

</rant>

 

Seriously lighting really is rarely biggest consumer of power in commercial permises, HVAC is, and there are a few bolt-on, retro-fit and wave near the appliance energy saving wizard items aimed at this very market, motor power controllers etc.

 

Lighting seems to have attracted the snake oil salesmen from under their rock because it is easy to sell as `simple retrofit`.

 

The reality is quite different, proper lighting costs,there are professionals who dedicate their working life to design good, functional, efficient lighting systems and putting badly done lighting right, really costs.

 

If someone tried to sell you something that saved "80%" of your fuel consumption just by dropping it in the tank and it only cost just under a tenner , would you buy it?

[timsabre]

There appears to be some sort of hype that is creeping into normally sane people that makes them think that adequate lighting should no longer consume more than 3W a point...

 

This should be government health advice attached to all LED lighting salespeople.

 

We have a local pub who have replaced all their MR16 downlighters with 3W LED warm white fixtures. Apart from being nowhere near as bright, and really narrow angle, they seem to be horribly unreliable, there's always at least 3 or 4 out, from maybe 20 fitted.

[AHYoung]

Now im confused, im not trying to do exterior lighting badly as its been implied, im possibly replacing 3 dozen 12v dicros which serve as the house lights in a 200 capacity hall.

 

Nobody Cheaped out on the install, thanks very much, appropriate technology was fitted at the time, its a few years on now and im sure that if its not available right now, its not far away.

 

Musht are you recomending the Norfolk & Way 5W LED MR16 available for £5.99 from selected ebay vendors. or being sarcastic? im assuming not as it seems too cheap and id rather buy from a trade distri, but its hardly helpfull advice if its not obvious whats meant,.

 

also with regard to running costs, a mid sized venue has a power usage running at thousands of pounds a month, and a reasonable proportion of that is the lighting. fair enough all the cooling and heating are more power hungry, but there isnt a reliable low enegy option as there is with lighting, arguements like its not the biggest user of power so its not worth doing anything about are a nonesense, any savings are worthwhile.

 

back to the original question, all I want is a reasonable reliable replacement for a mr16 either 12 or 240v but dimmable, does it exist?

[musht]

Sorry Alan , did apologise in advance and the rant really is not personal, its just typical of some the hype that seems to be getting sold to people.

 

Wether 36 halogen downlighters was ever an appropriate technology for main houselights and wether there is a technology to replace them without rebuilding the ceiling is questionable.

 

Try saying `Norfolk and Way` quickly :-), apologies to Don Lancaster for borrowing his imaginary supplier

 

>reliable low enegy option as there is with lighting

 

There is, despite the hype, very few `reliable low energy` lighting options.

 

Halogen is still the best quality of the light on the market, as its inventor called it.

 

Low energy options all have downsides, fluro is hard to dim to 0 but in T5 and T8 decent colour appearence and rendering are available.

CFL has a questionable lumen maintenance and reliablity record.

LED in real world applications equals the best of halogen for efficiency, to replace a 50W halogen flood lamp with LED will take darn near 50W of LED to do, not a cheap option.

Metal halides won`t dim.

In MR16 size CDM/CMH cermic metal halide, won`t dim, cost quite a few quid a point , but exceptionally efficient, good colour appearance and rendering , lamp life circa 20K hours, possibly get away with a circuit switched and dimmable other circuits for performance use.

 

Again look at what people are trying to sell you,lighting is an energy intensive activity, Source 1 the Sun sure uses a lot of energy...

 

Would you believe someone selling low energy electric heating, electric heating is almost 100% efficient, only way of loweering energy use is to lower heat out.

 

>any savings are worthwhile

 

This is the important point, Savings, as in something that will save more money than it cost over its useful lifespan. LED for general lighting is not there yet for the vast majority of installations.

 

>mr16 either 12 or 240v but dimmable, does it exist?

 

In a word, no.

 

GU10 CFL`s are apalling rubbish, LED MR16s are good but very expensive for something a 30p 20W halogen could do, think of the payback time....

 

Can just guess going to have some basic projector question sometime and take a drubbing for it ;-)

[Tomo]

Musht is pointing out that you simply cannot get all your requirements. Nothing exists that does all this - especially the budget.

 

smooth flicker free dimming to 0%

decent output with a Warm white colour

low consumption

50,000 hrs life

unit cost under a tenner

You'll need to decide which of these requirements you are willing to forego.

 

You will probably not find any dimmable LED lamps for under £10.

A quick search indicates that ~£15 is about as cheap as dimmable goes - and I doubt that lamp dims well, is anywhere near as bright as 50W halogen or lasts more than 10,000 hours.

 

The cheap non-dimmable MR16 LED lamps range from £5 to £10. (Some of these may be dimmable using an external PWM dimming PSU - extra cost, might be cheaper depending on the quantities.)

 

Basically, your budget is far too small.

You really need something like double the budget to get dimmable at all, and probably triple the budget to get the output and lifetime you're asking for.

 

You also need to be very careful about the 'dimmable', 'warm white', and 'decent output' parts.

Many 'dimmable' LED lamps require sinewave or trailing-edge (IGBT) dimmers, many manufacturers' idea of 'warm white' is neither warm nor white, and 'decent output' is often acheived by going to cold white (looks brighter) and/or very narrow beam angle (same amount of light but in a smaller area).

 

Of course, paying more progressively eliminates many of these caveats.

 

[Edit - Thanks musht]

[niclights]

I found this to be an informative read.

 

Certainly we're closer than ever before. I'm still sceptical but the Edison 6W units in particular look like a non-dimmable contender. If not that then undoubtedly their 9W cousin. For dimmable maybe the Philips 7W. Whichever, it's going to be more than your budget, especially dimmable and I would be keen to demo first to be sure about the 'warm white' and beam angle.

 

It might also be worth noting that pretty much all the halogen equivalents are not exactly the same size as the originals meaning they may not fit in existing fittings. However, unless low voltage is a safety requirement it probably makes sense in the majority of cases to use GU10 to avoid transformer issues and so you may well end up changing fittings anyway.

[AHYoung]

ok so its hardly definitive, but it seems what I want doesnt exist as yet... as ive got the experts expressing their opinion... room 14m / 6m , lighting can only be mounted on the walls at a height of 3.8m and only rear and sides. Its several hundred years old and as listed as you like... currently there a 3 lengths of track each side with powerlite electronic transformers fed from 2.5kw dimmers. Its fit for purpose as it has enough fixtures for general lighting and the 3 dimmer channels allow top table seperately lit and table spotting etc, but normally its lights on, dimmed or off. The house lighting runs from a 4ch anologue fader panel in the booth and its not feasible to run it from the board {a fat frog}.

 

Assuming that A. I want somthing with a much longer MTBF , B. usage is around 100 - 150 units a week and ideally the break point would be 3yrs. c. its got to be a usable light. whats the informed suggestion?

 

Ps any fixtures using aluminium reflector lamps similar in size to "pinspots" {cant remember the code} are just too obtrusive and too retail...

 

 

[ianl]

the philips master LED GU10 (240v)7w fitting is available in warm or cold white. stays the same colour temperature when dimmed (unlike halogen )has a good dimming curve (but can be fussy over dimmer type and I'm not sure about dmming to 0%) and we have replaced a lot of our GU10 halogen lamps with them.

however expect to pay £20 to £25 each

[musht]

OK, its not the usual dropped ceiling with a grid of downlighters splattered on it, heritage building with Histrionic Scotland wailing in the wings ;-) , bit different.

 

Lifespan issues don`t sound entirely normal, have had dichros installed for literally years without failures, good lamps should see several thousand hours , espcially with being soft started on dimmers. Would look at the loading on the trafos to see if they are loaded out of spec, either under or over. Possibly check track and connectors for tarnishing as well.

 

Next thing would be , does everything need 50W lamps, makes relamping convenient but some will neccesarily have a much longer throw than others , could these be downgraded to 35W for example. Certainly sounds as if there are savings to be had if lamps are run at 20% a lot.

 

Changing lamps for a more efficient halogen,cheap and 20% saving

 

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p98350

 

Philips have Masterline ES series with a claimed 35W equiv to a 50W, definately a premium lamp but if you get the life out of them...

 

http://www.ecat.lighting.philips.com/l/masterline-es/lp_cf_hmasles_eu_fa_my_lp_prof_atg/cat/my?title=MASTERLine+ES&navAction=jump&navCount=0&familyid=LP_CF_HMASLES_EU_FA_MY_LP_PROF_ATG&pageType=family#fly=LP_CF_HMASLES_EU_FA_MY_LP_PROF_ATG&productStartIndex=1&isSearch=false&familyStartIndex=1&grp=Lamps

 

Look at general coverage, if you can have a circuit that is non-dim, wall mounted discharge uplighters if the ceiling and historic considerations would allow it.CDM MR16 wall mounted or on a seperate track arrangement for daytime running needs.

 

LED is great for those niche and feature spots and incorporating into features, the lack of intense heat especially makes for new possibilities,but general cover really isn`t LEDs best area though.

 

AR111 is the lamp you are thinking of, 6" against an MR16`s 2" diameter.

 

This makes interesting reading, note the actual numbers for a 5W LED:

 

http://efficiencymatrix.com/downlight-lamp-output-tests/

 

There is a lot of marketing money being spent on confusing people.

[AHYoung]

probably buy at a box of lo energy halogens and see what happens.... deffering any change over to led untill such times as there is aunit that ticks all ther boxes... cheers