What knots do you use?

[kerry davies]

Moderation: link to previous thread provided - thanks Kerry - we've now merged the 2 threads. Pardon the pun!

[Ken Coker]

I would concur with all the above; knowing the nature and construction of rope is very important.

I'd add an overhand - because it's quite useful to be able to make a loop quickly.

An Italian hitch is useful for lowering things, although there is great potential to stuff this up; get all the basic ones mastered first.

 

Oh...leave a long enough dead-end.

Oh....and practice...go and get yourself 1.5 metres of 10mm...

 

KC

[timd]

Add a rolling hitch as well. Once you can do a clove hitch it's not a big step up. Clove hitches are largely useless if only one of the tails is loaded as they're prone to slip and come undone.

 

A round turn and two half hitches is also a good knot to know.

 

Most important of all however is knowing which knot is suitable for a given job, without that knowing every knot known to man becomes useless. Practice tying knots, but also using them and working out which ones are suitable when.

 

Tim

[jonathanhill]

As I have posted before, ideally you should know (backwards, upside down, back to front, in the dark, hands tied behind your back) one each of a bend, a hitch and a knot.

 

I recommend:

 

Bend: sheet bend, others have suggested a Carrick bend

 

Hitch: clove hitch, other suggestions are a rolling hitch, essential if hoisting scaff bars for example

 

Knot: bowline, essential for most hoisting operations

 

I rate knot selection and tying to be one of the core skills of a technician. Practice them until they are second nature with a piece of sash. And then practice them again.

[andy_s]

Add a rolling hitch as well. Once you can do a clove hitch it's not a big step up. Clove hitches are largely useless if only one of the tails is loaded as they're prone to slip and come undone.

 

A round turn and two half hitches is also a good knot to know.

 

Most important of all however is knowing which knot is suitable for a given job, without that knowing every knot known to man becomes useless. Practice tying knots, but also using them and working out which ones are suitable when.

 

Tim

 

While it is true to say that the clove hitch is ideally used with an equal load on either side of the hitch, it's wrong to dismiss it as useless in other situations. In fact you will see it most frequently employed quite successfully this way in a theatre environment, as the fixing in a typical hempset.

[timd]

While it is true to say that the clove hitch is ideally used with an equal load on either side of the hitch, it's wrong to dismiss it as useless in other situations. In fact you will see it most frequently employed quite successfully this way in a theatre environment, as the fixing in a typical hempset.

 

It's the learning knot suitability thing I mentioned above really. Many situations are fine to use a clove hitch, such as finishing off a lashing or indeed lashing a tiller. I haven't seen any hempsets so I couldn't comment on that. What I wouldn't want to see was a scaff pole being lifted with one! If you're only loading one side, a rolling hitch is a much more suitable knot.

 

Tim

[brainwave-generator]

I'd add an overhand - because it's quite useful to be able to make a loop quickly.

 

True it is, but an overhand is not load bearing. Unless you mean - an overhand with a bite. Then yes, that is load bearing but can be an utter PITA to undo when tight (as it tightens under load). Generally better off spending the extra 5 seconds trying a fig-8 or a bowline to save time when undoing.

 

An Italian hitch is useful for lowering things, although there is great potential to stuff this up; get all the basic ones mastered first.

 

Indeed, Italian / Munter hitch very good for lowering things, or indeed yourself. (Self-rescue if fallen from height and hanging on fall arrest gear). I slipped whilst roofing a stage last year and fell quite far down the side of the stage before my ASAP (fall arrest device) caught me (it didn't do anything wrong, just the way I fell didn't trigger it. My bad not it's bad.) Didn't have any rope access kit on me but recovered myself from the fall and got to the floor using a Prussik knot with an accessory cord, to get myself back up the rope so I could remove my fall arrester; and then a munter hitch to lower myself down my ASAP line on a carabiner.

 

Could have waited for the cherry picker but no time like the present!

 

Oh....and practice...go and get yourself 1.5 metres of 10mm...

 

Also agreed with this! Go down any climbing store and get yourself 5m of 10mm rope to play with. It's surprising how quickly your hands can learn a set of movements when done often enough.

[Seano]

Deja-vu.

Now that the threads have merged, whatever I said last time is ^^^ up there.

 

Im in the process of applying for theatre technician jobs, however in my last interview I fell flat on my face when I got asked to tie a clove hitch, so that im prepared what knots do you guys think I should know?

I'd guess the point of asking you to tie a knot in an interview would be to gauge your experience, so rather than just learning a load of random knots maybe you should also be thinking about the context a bit. Which knots do you use at work? What, specifically, are you using them for? Lashing loads in the back of a wagon? Hemp-sets and hemp assist?

 

For traditional theatre ropework and wotnot, you could do a lot worse than to have a read of the Jay Glerum book.

 

If you are going to do a stopper knot, a fisherman's knot is better than a Fig-8. Double fisherman's with most rope but on 6mm or less go triple.

You're thinking of a different kind of stopper knot to what GG is talking about.

 

Clove hitch is a very useful knot as you can use it not only as a knot, but also as a progress-capture device for hoisting. You can also use it to slowly release the rope too. I use it for lowering lights by myself if I can't move the truss.

a) Eh? How do you use it as a 'progress-capture' device? I'd have thought it'd be utterly hopeless for that. The old-school method for 'progress capture' would be a prusik-minding pulley and a French prusik. New-school obviously would be a mechanical device (pro-traxion, ascender, etc.)

b) Eh? (again) You use a clove hitch for that? You're not mixing it up with an italian (or 'munter') hitch?

 

Knowing knot efficiency is fairly important.

Fairly important in an academic, hardly-ever-actually-important-at-all kind of a way.

 

I haven't seen any hempsets so I couldn't comment on that. What I wouldn't want to see was a scaff pole being lifted with one!

Uh-oh. Better carry on not seeing any hempsets then Tim. ;)

[andy_s]

While it is true to say that the clove hitch is ideally used with an equal load on either side of the hitch, it's wrong to dismiss it as useless in other situations. In fact you will see it most frequently employed quite successfully this way in a theatre environment, as the fixing in a typical hempset.

 

It's the learning knot suitability thing I mentioned above really. Many situations are fine to use a clove hitch, such as finishing off a lashing or indeed lashing a tiller. I haven't seen any hempsets so I couldn't comment on that. What I wouldn't want to see was a scaff pole being lifted with one! If you're only loading one side, a rolling hitch is a much more suitable knot.

 

Tim

I can assure you that in the many hemp-houses that are still found around the country the clove hitch is the most widely used knot for suspension of barrels above the stage and it is entirely suitable for purpose. A rolling hitch could be used, but is slower to tie and undo, and offers little or no additional benefit in this situation, where 3- or 4-line rope sets are used to raise or lower horizontal barrels (scaff poles) to which scenery, masking drapes or even sometimes lighting or sound equipment may be attached. (As you've never seen a hempset, I thought I'd describe one). Where I might prefer a rolling hitch or perhaps a timber hitch would be if there was a need to lift a scaff pole or spar vertically using a single suspension point in order to relocate it somewhere at high level. As you say, it is about suitability.

 

In a theatre context, I've never needed to lash a tiller, but it's good to know that if the need arises, a clove hitch, which I've tied many thousands of times, would be suitable.

 

e2a - good points, Seano.

[kitlane]

I would expect to see a clove hitch on a hemp set finished off with a couple of half hitches and/or a liberal application of LX tape. Otherwise there is a danger that the knot will slip.

[timd]

 

I can assure you that in the many hemp-houses that are still found around the country the clove hitch is the most widely used knot for suspension of barrels above the stage and it is entirely suitable for purpose. A rolling hitch could be used, but is slower to tie and undo, and offers little or no additional benefit in this situation, where 3- or 4-line rope sets are used to raise or lower horizontal barrels (scaff poles) to which scenery, masking drapes or even sometimes lighting or sound equipment may be attached. (As you've never seen a hempset, I thought I'd describe one). Where I might prefer a rolling hitch or perhaps a timber hitch would be if there was a need to lift a scaff pole or spar vertically using a single suspension point in order to relocate it somewhere at high level. As you say, it is about suitability.

 

So it's a clove hitch to the bar, over a pulley and down to the fly floor with a pinrail? Does that mean that only one tail of the hitch to the bar is loaded?

 

 

Uh-oh. Better carry on not seeing any hempsets then Tim. ;)

 

The point I was trying to make was along the lines of a single rope hoisting a pole vertically like scaffolders commonly do.

 

In a theatre context, I've never needed to lash a tiller, but it's good to know that if the need arises, a clove hitch, which I've tied many thousands of times, would be suitable.

 

 

Yup, clove hitch around the tiller and then make off the ends to a rail on the respective side.

[brainwave-generator]

a) Eh? How do you use it as a 'progress-capture' device? I'd have thought it'd be utterly hopeless for that. The old-school method for 'progress capture' would be a prusik-minding pulley and a French prusik. New-school obviously would be a mechanical device (pro-traxion, ascender, etc.)

b) Eh? (again) You use a clove hitch for that? You're not mixing it up with an italian (or 'munter') hitch?

 

Nope as well as it's obvious use for pulling chain into the roof when it's not attached to a basket, it is good for progress capture.

 

You are correct, I would rather use a Pro Traxion or a Shunt. But one thing that you can't do with those devices is wrap them around things.

 

The clove hitch is useful in that you can wrap it around things and the weight of the load will keep the knot tight, as soon as the load goes up by it's own accord, you can reel in the slack easily by lifting the 'cross' rope and pulling through. Outside of this industry, I used a clove hitch around a tree to get a car up a very icey slope. Connected a nice big rope to the tow shackle, and clove hitch around the tree. As the car moved up 3/4 feet, I could reel in the slack on the rope.

 

There are often situations where I find myself with rope but without my full case of gadgets. Yes for most knots there is a better mechanical alternative. But there are situations where you don't have them or there are obstructions preventing their use, this is where knowing how to use knots as substitutes can go a long way.

 

Prussik method does work but requires 2 pieces of rope. Clove hitch method needs nothing but 1 rope and some kind of pole / pillar / tree and you're go.

[trussmonkey]

here is a great website for those learning to tie knots

 

http://www.animatedknots.com/indexscouting.php

 

im a rigger and I use Bowline, Clove Hitch, half hitches.

 

anything else just takes up room in my brain that I just cant spare!!!

 

I did learn the Alpine Butterfly which is a neat knot if you have to tie a loop in the middle of a rope (you can tie it one handed) to make a ladder etc. never used it but I like it.

 

TM

[andy_s]

So it's a clove hitch to the bar, over a pulley and down to the fly floor with a pinrail? Does that mean that only one tail of the hitch to the bar is loaded?

Yes.

[Ken Coker]

I'd add an overhand - because it's quite useful to be able to make a loop quickly.

 

True it is, but an overhand is not load bearing. Unless you mean - an overhand with a bite. Then yes, that is load bearing but can be an utter PITA to undo when tight (as it tightens under load). Generally better off spending the extra 5 seconds trying a fig-8 or a bowline to save time when undoing.

 

 

Indeed, yes...an overhand loop - no rabbits, no holes, no trees to think about while your pal is in the middle of a river.

 

As a poster has mentioned, do practice with your eyes shut and with the rope behind your back - you may get to meet new people on the bus in the morning.....