sam.henderson Posted October 23, 2004 Author Share Posted October 23, 2004 having looked at some other discusssions I think that is what we will have to do. Sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emj Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 Hi Sam Sorry to repeat this it is a pro Job You should not be lifting People with chain hoist they in the most are not designed for the purpose and are all fairly noise. The exception is hoist that comply with BGV C1 If memory servs this is the german standard which are double braked and A higher speck. They are not as noise but do get double click of brake The standard lift rates for a Cm Hoist are 4m a minute and 8m minute. You can get vary Speed but you are then getting in to big money and operators for the job What ever you do it would have to be rigged by pro riggers. you would be looking at using wire winches. The last job I did when I set one up was Jamilas entrance for Party in the Park. We used a 1/2ton ratted Tirac winch on it. Which when run throw DC inverters is vary speed. The hardest bit is cable management of the lift wire. But they are easy to use and rig. I was Working for the Star Rigging which are part of the Star events group. I would Ring them and Talk to Phil broad. What Ever happens do do it properly and safely will not be cheap If you want more info Message me of forum Em Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the kid Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 Although it might seem stupid as you said it is like one you get in strip joints or where ever why not ask there. you might get a odd look but it could prove vital. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jagardner1984 Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 I think provided you stick to the easily accessible ABTT recommendations, i.e. Safety factors for lifting people - there is no problem in you making the device yourself - so long as you get it checked by someone competent under Health and Safety legislation before use. To answer your Lodestar question - the one we have is single phase, but they do make a bit of noise, we are playing music over the sequence - but obviously this is not always possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slim_mcslim Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 why could you not use a 0.5t rated speed lodestar, which can lift well, erm 0.5t and even a fat bloke like me doesn't weigh that much, and the last time I used speed lodestars I wouldn't say they where particularly noisy, there is the click at the end when the brake locks in... not saying that I frequent strip joints so I wouldn't know of their systems, but if I where to be opening a strip club where I wanted moving cages, I may use something along the lines of the style of electric cable winch similar to those found on land rovers or in machine mart the club where I used to work we had a moving truss rig 6m square, controlled from two electric winches with a DMX interface and controlled from the lighting desk, this was also made safe by 4 x 1t fall arrestors, the whole rig must have weighed around 1.5t and operated above the main dancefloor above 800 people so something like that must be safe enough to lift a 150kg cage plus two actors - 350kg tops Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sam.henderson Posted October 23, 2004 Author Share Posted October 23, 2004 with a DMX interface I can't imagine that that complied with h&s. DMX is not as far as I am aware designed or safe for things like controling motors, pyro etc. (please correct me if im wrong someone) Sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emj Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 DMX is just a date protocol so it's as good as any other except not as stable as sum I have run hoists on it and seen pyro run off it Ethernet is far better Remember all it is, Is a control signal Em Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sam.henderson Posted October 23, 2004 Author Share Posted October 23, 2004 after a little digging I found out that according to USITT DMX is not to be used for any effect where incorrect, lack of, or interruption to reception could cause damage or injury. so to me truss being controlled by this would mean that the company was going against H&S advice and therefor not providing a safe working environment. Sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emj Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 all the DMX is used for is triggering a contactor or a relay. Making the appropriate control live.So the DMX gives the Q in the same way as you could with midi. So the DMX is not controlling The Hoist / winch Sadly it's not an ideal world Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jagardner1984 Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 Sorry emj, but if the DMX is making the control live, therefore causing the hoist to move, then surely it is controlling the hoist. The way we are doing this in the show is just having someone standing close by, but out of sight, with a pickle, controlling it. I would have thought the other advantage of having someone watching it is that if there were any problems, then they could stop it straight away. Surely to have any form of equipment that lifts people, that is not being operated or watched by a person, presents a huge health and safety problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oh lordy Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 Hi again Sam, The other option you might like to think about is putting it on a ram so it pushes the cage up as appose to pulling it up. This depends on how high you intend it going. If I were you I would talk to a set company or an automation company. Get the pros involved early on. It will not be cheap however you do it though. Why do they need to be lifted up in a cage? Oh Lordy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slim_mcslim Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 DMX is not to be used for any effect where incorrect, lack of, or interruption to reception could cause damage or injury. to further clarify, the rig moved between the ceiling 8m height and about 3m above the floor with independant control of the front and rear end the fall arrestors where only 5m in length and wouldn't allow the rig to go further, and the electric winches are plc controlled so 100% on the DMX channel is the lowest height the rig would go. originally the rigs where operated off two masterpieces and the access control was locked out, so only people who knew the pass code could move the rigs, and it didn't just happen accidentially... paul... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomLyall Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 Its just my opinion, and I'm sure the H&S etc says otherwise, but... If what paul says about the rig is correct, controlling it via DMX does sound safe enough in that case... although I imagine you would also need some form of 'deadmans' or at least an emergency stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sam.henderson Posted October 23, 2004 Author Share Posted October 23, 2004 Hi again Sam, The other option you might like to think about is putting it on a ram so it pushes the cage up as appose to pulling it up. This depends on how high you intend it going. If I were you I would talk to a set company or an automation company. Get the pros involved early on. It will not be cheap however you do it though. Why do they need to be lifted up in a cage? Oh Lordy The venue I am working with (a producing house) has strong links with Stage Electrics and there guys know the venue well so In am going to get them involved once I can find out more about the construction of the actual cage. You are right hoisting someone up is no joke and cannot be bodged (not that I was ever thinking of doing that but you know what I mean), I will get the pros involved re: hoisting it. Still think the constrcution guys should beable to make the cages though. Sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trussmonkey Posted October 24, 2004 Share Posted October 24, 2004 to be honest data controlled hoist are an industry standard. there are manufacturer made lodestars that have a data input. these encoded motors are run from a motor control eg. skjonberg or kinseys. if any one has a problem with data run hoists or is unsure as to the h&s aspect of said hoists then they should contact these companies for more info. as to the problem at hand, as long as you build in a proper safety factor then things should be ok. a 1 ton hoist (1000kg) lifting a 100 kg person would give you a safety rating of 10:1, which is I think an acceptable figure. double braked motors would allow you to not use an extra safety line. you might have to have a short suitable safety bypassing the conection between the hoist and the cage. you should also look at the lifting tackle on the cage this will have to be rated as well. BUT I WHOLE HEARTEDLY AGREE WITH THE STATEMENT THAT THIS IS A JOB FOR A PROFESSIONAL. ONLY THEY WILL BE ABLE TO FULLY ASSESS THE SITUATION AND ITS RISKS. PLEASE DO NOT ATTEMPT IT. GO TO A RIGGING COPMPANY LIKE UNUSUAL RIGGING OR SUMMIT. THANKS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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