Filming of Danceshows / Plays

[Bobbsy]

I tend to lean on this the other way - if a show is going to be filmed for commercial gain, then I tend to feel that everyone involved should be rewarded for their work on the show.

 

I see where you're coming from TeeJay--but think this may be going in a direction that might not be the best for technicians.

 

Quite simply, if you're going to share in the gain it would be reasonable to expect you to share in the risk. Would you really want a situation where, like the dance school (or producers in commercial theatre) your income is dependent on the revenue? I'd rather have my hourly rate/day rate, thank you very much!

 

If the filming entails extra work then that's one thing. However, just letting a guy with a semi-pro camcorder set up at the back doesn't usually impact on the theatre crew one bit--and asking for extra dosh for nothing is the sort of thing that will kill the industry. I was working in TV back in the 70s and 80s and saw the upheaval that happened when employers (and the government) decided to "take on" the ACTT (the forerunner to BECTU). The backlash for having too many restrictive practices has meant the pendulum swung way to far in the other direction with people lucky to get a fair wage at all.

 

Bob

 

Edited to add an extra thought: As luck would have it, the thread at the top of the next forum down is Paulears' complaint about BT for making an unjustified extra charge because he doesn't pay by direct debit. I have total sympathy with Paul on that--but isn't a theatre that makes an extra charge for no extra service doing exactly the same thing--with similar effect on the client's satisfaction?

[paulears]

I'd like to think that perhaps the point at which it's 'ok' reverses into 'taking advantage' follows similar lines to to the venue decided to accept a split or take the straight hire fee.

 

If the hirer stands to make a loss, or perhaps just about break even, the venue is unlikely to want a split of this kind of risk, but if the show is a guaranteed hit, then a split is far better. Is this perhaps when the 'professional' tag gets added? If the venue want/need to take a straight hire charge, then why not use this as the arbiter of extra payment approval?

 

If the BBC are coming with a scanner, needing rows of seats removing, maybe a free audience too, and broadcast and DVD rights, then it seems fair to consider this a non-theatrical production, for the benefit of the remote viewer, with the audience there for atmosphere? Archive recording is very different - it is not supposed to be used for publicity or promotion, and shouldn't be material designed for eventual sale. A dance show 'memory' DVD is a very different beast. I can't find any logical reason for any member of the crew to believe they deserve any special payment. The gimme gimme attitude and greedy desire for extras where they're not deserved might work in a highly unionised venue with big budgets and lesser reliance on hires, but for a very large number of places I visit - business like this is essential.

 

My own venue do hires for rehearsals for dance shows that take place 20 miles away in Norwich. Their fees for hiring the venue are obviously much higher than ours, so the dance show people do a few days at our venue, including planning for scene changes and LX, then they just have a single day at the other venue. If that venue started adding on crew fees for recording the show, my guess would be they'd use us for the show too, despite the extra distance and inconvenience for people who live on the other side of the city!

 

I'm not against extra payments for extra services - but this isn't what we're talking about here. Extra pay for doing nothing extra - because somehow the hirers income has a link to what we do? If the hirer loses money (or the venue too perhaps) how about a pay cut - share the loss? That's no so good, is it?

[Smiffy]

I'm with Paul here.

 

I've designed Dance Shows that were recorded by the school for the school, and as an item for them to up their income on the show to fund the next one. I wouldn't dream of making any extra money off them for the sake of adding in a bit of extra key light. Easy enough to do by sticking in a fader with all the front light at full and riding the levels to maintain some semblance of the 'art' that was created with the show director, but flexible enough that the school are not selling a DVD of a dark room (as far as the camera is concerned)

 

Likewise, I've designed pro shows that have, mid run, been allocated a slot on one of the national TV channels, and then I've had to meet with one of the lighting directors from the station (I know most of them well, love them to bits, but wouldn't let them light a christmas party) gently get rid of them, and then relight the show in almost its entirety to accommodate the demands of a pro (and I use the term very, very loosely here in the sand pit) OB unit. That is a lot of work, for which I would expect a Credit, and more money.

 

Simple as, and I suppose it could all be neatly summed up as 'Don't bite the hand that feeds you, but don't be taken advantage of when the pro's should know better'.

 

Cheers

 

Smiffy

[Just Some Bloke]

I've not come across anyone who funds their show through video sales.

 

It's very common and I'm surprised you've never come across it. It works like this: the video company say that filming will be free but they will provide DVDs for, say, £12.50 each and need a minimum sale of, say, 25 (figures may vary). The dance school then sell the DVDs to the mums and dads for £15. If they sell less than 19 then the school lose out but if they sell more than that then they're in profit. That profit goes to help fund putting on the show.

[Jivemaster]

From past real experience, dancing school photos are simply 25% commission to the school/teacher, it's the equivalent of another teaching day for them in addition to the term days. I expect that show vids are really little different. Simple single camera recording, possible better than on camera mic but not always. If people don't buy neither the school nor the video company make anything. Without the profitable extras it usually isn't worth being a dancing teacher. I could estimate the turnover from the number of pupils quite well. each parent bought a set of prints for three people, (Typ Gran, mum and aunt!)

 

Without the video sales the show probably will move to a more user friendly venue.

 

As for the technicians. 1/it's a day's work, 2/ sending an audio feed is hardly serious manual or technical effort. 3/stand by for a group of irritated women actually trying to make your life as difficult as possible.

 

For the venue, it's a day when you are open and being paid, that could easily be in any other theatre within 10 miles maybe 20. It's an easy technical day because the punters are watching their child not the lights and sound. The extras are where your client makes the money to pay the bill.

 

It's not a relight for TV/Film

[TeeJay]

I'm suspecting that this is conversation that would work better in person with a beverage in hand ...

 

At no point am I advocating that the crew get paid for doing nothing - though I am saying that sometimes what the crew are doing is standing by for trouble ...

 

We've also deviated a little from the OP request and are heading towards the state of pay in the theatre industry ...

 

So, going back on topic, the BECTU/SOLT agreement says that any visual recording on electronic media invokes a payment of one time extra in relation to the hours worked to faciliate the recording (Common Conditions of Service, 2.22 in the 2008 agreement)

 

And the BECTU/TMA agreement says much the same but specifies also that this will not apply for rehearsals, EPK, archival, advertising or promotional purposes (Rates of Pay 3.3.6, in the 2006 agreement)

 

So yes, this does exist in writing. I'm certain that Equity and the MU will also have provisions for recording performances.

 

That's not to say that I wouldn't ask for a little more detail as to what that £250 breaks down to. Also note, that the agreements don't specify where those payments are coming from, so there could be scope to negotiate venue management to pay that fee ...

 

I think that this figure also depend on the size of the venue - are we looking at a 100 seat community arts centre or a 1000 seat receiving house?

[Gareth A]

Venue in specific question is a mid size venue. Wont be specific in case anyone realises where this is aimed at. but its between 550 - 650 and has a LARGE amateur turnover during the year and a few major no1 tours along with hundreds of one nighters.

 

Indeed - "apparently" the £250 goes to the crew. . . there is a basic crew call of 4 for these shows so would assume a 4 way split. But having worked in a venue identical to this, its a very simple thing for this.

 

Also these dance shows are easy at this venue. Usually they pay for a 4 hour call just to put up a few cloths and a bit of rostrum. Usually no real scenery or set, so for that point is easy. And it really is lights up, lights down, sound on, sound off. So it really is EASY money just being a technician.

 

I do agree and touring as a CSM / CM on major No1 shows, it is important that everyone is correctly paid. But I have also been on the flip side where I refused to sign another hour TMA to 11 staff and almost got thrown out. And that is after they racked up hours of overtime during the week - though all legit.

 

Dance shows do not make a lot off these videos, but it is true, every little helps, and based on the fact that they book probably 20 weeks a year in total, and there is a arts centre nearby, and a sports hall that is converted, and a college with a full stage etc, they really can go elsewhere.

 

 

To finish, I BET you anything that this is a thing from the managers and not the crew demanding more money. . . but ironically its the crew who look bad and money grabbers . . . (in this instance that is)

[Gareth A]

So, going back on topic, the BECTU/SOLT agreement says that any visual recording on electronic media invokes a payment of one time extra in relation to the hours worked to faciliate the recording (Common Conditions of Service, 2.22 in the 2008 agreement)

 

And the BECTU/TMA agreement says much the same but specifies also that this will not apply for rehearsals, EPK, archival, advertising or promotional purposes (Rates of Pay 3.3.6, in the 2006 agreement)

 

Now it could be me reading this out of context but the dictionary definition of Facilitate is as foolows:

 

To facilitate an action or process, especially one that you would like to happen, means to make it easier or more likely to happen. ?

 

So if I read this right - the only person who should be paid for 15 minutes in this question is the sound - for handing over the mix. No one else does not perform any actions to help...........

 

Or am I reading it totally wrong

[Just Some Bloke]

So if I read this right - the only person who should be paid for 15 minutes in this question is the sound - for handing over the mix. No one else does not perform any actions to help...........

What about the TM who always has to say "you really can't put that tripod in an aisle, I'm afraid" - what with the arguing, explaining then contacting box office to lose some seats, that's another 10 minutes to be paid for! :** laughs out loud **:

[Gareth A]

So if I read this right - the only person who should be paid for 15 minutes in this question is the sound - for handing over the mix. No one else does not perform any actions to help...........

What about the TM who always has to say "you really can't put that tripod in an aisle, I'm afraid" - what with the arguing, explaining then contacting box office to lose some seats, that's another 10 minutes to be paid for! :)

 

Oh bugger forgot about him, what about the stage door keeper who opened the door!?

 

But its true. Live at the apollo is based as said before on tv and dvd so you have to facilitate their needs to ensure it happens. These guys are no different than the teacher sat watching from the same position etc!

[paulears]

I posted a link to this topic on a video forum I like, Link here - to see their take on this conversation