Filming of Danceshows / Plays

[Gareth A]

To anyone that knows the rules backwards,

 

I have a friend who films danceshows around the country and then sells them to the dance school as do a lot of companies.

 

The general rule of thumb for many years, is that they literally put the camera in a empty part of the control room, or have seats reserved. In some venues they put their own mics in if needed, or if the venue is happy to throw them a stereo mix, then they accept that. They dont ask them to change the lighting, the show, the sound. Its a true representation of the show. Ok the sound guys have to set up a mix, but these guys have been doing it for many many years.

 

Now a particular theatre has said that they will charge £250+vat for this to be be done . as its a "commercial enterprise". . and this money is "apparently" passed onto the technicians. . .

 

Does anyone know of anything in writing in Bectu, Solt, TMA etc that actually says this. I do remember reading something once, that if you have to change what your doing, put extra lighting in, sound in, rehearsals then this counts . . but . . .

 

The only people that have access is the Dance school, the parents etc. This isnt for sale in a shop or anything like that. Also the schools get a % to put back into the school.

 

I did have a search but could not find anything . .

 

Thoughts?

[sleah]

This almost smacks of the same thing as Hotels charging a similar amount NOT to use the house DJ. However I suspect said venue doesn't have a 'house' videographer......

I have heard (in passing) of a similar thing locally, but that may heve been a ban rather than a charge. Either way, I don't personally see what right a venue has to impose a ban or any amount of charge, unless they see it as taking revenue away from them, which would be a matter for discussion if it was!

There are, as well all know, a few good reasons why a show can't be recorded, and if it is then it may require paperwork and licensing which would incur cost, but not to the venue (assuming it's not thier show) :)

[gareth]

The BECTU/TMA agreement provides for venue staff to be paid an additional payment if any performance on which they're working is filmed. I don't have a copy of the agreement to hand at the moment to check the exact wording or the details of exactly what the premium payment consists of, but basically the only exceptions are if a small part of the performance (I seem to recall a figure of less than five minutes, but that might just be my memory playing tricks!) is filmed purely for the purposes of promotion of that production at that venue. A performance being recorded in its entirety for commercial resale would fall well within the scope of that particular part of the agreement.

 

That said, I would've thought that any such arrangements should go through the theatre management and the hirer (in this case, the dance school) rather than being a direct arrangement between the venue and the video company.

[paulears]

I was pretty certain it was the MU agreement that had these clauses, not the BECTU one. Considering the number of these that take place, I'd think somebody would have mentioned it a long time ago.

 

When musicians appear in the video, or can be heard playing on a soundtrack, that's fine - they should be paid. However, the crew don't get seen, and their input is largely transparent. So what would they actually be paid for, as an extra. Cloth flown in by Fred? Blackout operated by Joe? Track started late by Paul?

[halfpint]

I work in a bectu/ tma venue, the general rule we follow is that is the video is being sold then all technicians working on that performance are paid @1.5 their normal rate, however local dance school and amature shows tell management it's for archive only and then don't have to pay the enhanced rate to staff, however we know full well they mostly then sell the DVD to parents/ students for profit. So it's a tricky one because as a technician I am entitaled to the cash however is not a big name DVD so discrection is normally the key. When jimmy carr filmed we were paid the rates, local school we're not.

[paulears]

That seems very fair. The dance schools of course need to sell the DVD to fund the show costs, and if you increased the hire fee to cater for extra payments to the crew, they probably wouldn't come, and everyone would lose out.

[dbuckley]

There was a big discussion about this topic on the Lab recently , whcih (last I read it) came down heaviliy on charging for providing a feed.

[Gareth A]

Yes, the MU agreement does entitle the musicians to extra payment likewise when a EPK is made they are paid a show fee etc.

 

I do agree that in a way crew (myself) being one should be paid when their works is filmed and sold. I know a lot of the dance schools that my friend films are quite open about it being sold to parents - I myself worked in a venue that they filmed in. However we never charged them as all we gave them is 1 table, 1 13amp socket and a balanced mix - total time 5 minutes - all done in the time were being paid by the dance school anyway. So its not a extra set of works to be done.

 

And how can u set a fee of £250 and say its given to the crew. If there is 10 crew or 2 crew then there is a huge difference. Would they actually give 2 crew members a £125 bonus ..... Doubt it. 1.5 hour rate actually seems a fair way of doing it. Then does not matter how many crew are on. However saying this, this does help fund the shows so removing that bit of income is another step towards loosing a booking.!

[paulears]

I think that my own feelings are that if staff are employed as creatives, then their input should be rewarded, but I am against the idea of hourly paid staff who get paid for working exceptionally hard and continuously on one production at the same rate as another with a curtain up, curtain down format when they spend the time in the crew room.

 

From the perspective of the hirer, they may well be charged for a fixed number of crew. If they are not regular theatre people, as many aren't, the concept of a call going out, people suddenly appearing, doing a change or whatever - and then vanishing again, because they are not interested in the actual production is a bit alien. Having to pay them extra, even if justified by agreements in place, doesn't go down well.

 

It could be argued that their job is to place X item of scenery on the mark, at the correct time - and as long as they do this, everyone is happy. If there are just 20 people in the audience, it doesn't matter - they don't get paid any less. If it's a full house - they won't even notice - so if they have 20 in the audience and sell 100 videos, is this really any different to having 1000 in the audience and not selling any - income for them could be identical?

 

What we are really talking about is sharing in the profit. They make more money, so the crew should too. How would the crew feel taking a percentage of the house split on a normal show? Full house, lots of money, poor house, not a lot? I think this factor is where the union agreements on extra payments come from. Live at the Apollo, or similar shows are a brand in itself, so these shows are built around the video product, and the audience are part of the show - special rates for everyone concerned are the norm, so this is just a negotiation thing. Dry hire of your venue is not the clients problem. How much to hire the building for a dance show? £X ooh, that's a lot - oh well hopefully we'll sell a few videos to get it back.

 

 

If the crew have a need to be paid extra for events after the show, and can get it, good! It isn't a right though, and for me - I don't think it's fair.

 

How would they feel if the dance school one year got bitten - but there isn't an alternate venue, so they have to go back. I know what I'd do to get my own back. I'd be calling the crew to the stage almost non-stop for small, tiny things - keeping them busy, and making their life miserable - no TV watching if I was paying them a premium. Just think what they could do if they knew. A cloth swap between each number, unnecessary lx cues, small props needing to be shifted between each section - I'd have real fun doing this to get my own back. Dance shows (apart from the hordes of kids and mums) are not the most difficult shows - and if you make a mistake, they rarely even notice!

 

Don't be greedy.

[Gareth A]

How would they feel if the dance school one year got bitten - but there isn't an alternate venue, so they have to go back. I know what I'd do to get my own back. I'd be calling the crew to the stage almost non-stop for small, tiny things - keeping them busy, and making their life miserable - no TV watching if I was paying them a premium. Just think what they could do if they knew. A cloth swap between each number, unnecessary lx cues, small props needing to be shifted between each section - I'd have real fun doing this to get my own back. Dance shows (apart from the hordes of kids and mums) are not the most difficult shows - and if you make a mistake, they rarely even notice!

 

Don't be greedy.

 

Probably one of the best answers I have seen. I for one totally agree as I said before - we never charged because its no loss to us, and it helps albeit a tiny bit. Also the schools appreciate that you are not there JUST to make money - ok its an easier life, but they know you do your best and dont want to financially ruin them. Or certainly when I was at my venue, so they learn to appreciate you more. And throw you an extra box of beer.

 

But looks like there is NOTHING officially in writing. . . .

[Just Some Bloke]

I just wanted to agree with Paul and Gareth. In order to fund putting on a show in the first place the dance school sell a video to the delighted mums and dads. Live At The Appollo it ain't! If they didn't sell the video then they couldn't afford to put a show on and the theatre would be dark for that week so we'd all lose out. I think all our casual staff would rather have 100% of a weeks work than 150% of nothing! In return for turning a blind eye to the sales of a video we get guaranteed work that week and it takes us an extra 5 minutes to facilitate that work. As Paul says, moving a piece of set or flying a cloth is in no way affected by whether there's a camera filming it or not.

 

From the point of view of a creative then if my lighting design is being sold then I'd like to be credited for that at least, but at the end of the day I'd still rather have the work at my usual fee than charge 1.5x and break the budget so the show gets cancelled.

[Gareth A]

And we always say - we do not do this job for the money. We do it for the glitz, the glamous, the sleepless nights . . :blink:

 

But is a interesting point. Some money - is better than NO money.

[TeeJay]

I tend to lean on this the other way - if a show is going to be filmed for commercial gain, then I tend to feel that everyone involved should be rewarded for their work on the show. And while I agree with paulears that paying for the crew to be watching TV is a little galling, it's certainly better to have the crew available should something go wrong ... we've talked enough on here criticising producers who pay stage managers to press play for sound who then complain when the stage manager can't fix it when the computer freezes.

 

Our in-house BECTU agreement has a minimum fee payable to each crew member called on the show for all commercially filmed works - archival copies and press are exempt from this minimum fee. There is something of a grey area when it comes to the dance school recordings

The amount payable under BECTU contracts varies from theatre to theatre but is normally an extra couple of hours pay or a few hours at an additional rate.

 

The £250 charge seems a little arbitrary mind you. I wonder how many technicians are called for that dance show ...

[the source]

I'm glad it's been highlighted that there is a difference in something being filmed for real commercial interest, where it is really filmed FOR television broadcast and/or DVD distribution, and an amateur show that is filmed for prosperity for the mums and dads, what I would call "special interest" for cast and family.

 

From my own dealings with the local schools, the money generated from selling a video of a show to the mums and dads watching is barely enough to fund the making of the video when you consider the investment in kit, maintenance, travel, days editing, etc. it very soon amounts to being overworked and underpaid like the rest of us, despite the expertise, etc.

 

I've not come across anyone who funds their show through video sales. Like photographers I imagine, the money generated simply pays for their service, and that's where the "commercial enterprise" ends.

 

So, if the video company is making just about enough to make it viable, the school is making nothing, where's this extra £250 supposed to come from?

 

As for where that £250 would go? What, £50 for the Box Office lady who helped me reserve the seats, £50 for the Duty Manager who gave the nod to where I put my mics, £150 to the sound/lighting Tech who plugged my XLR into his desk and sent the CD down it. Bargain! Now the DVD price is £30!!! Anyone still want one?

[TheLightsTech]

When it comes to school dance shows and the like I usually just request a free copy and call it even... which helps me out (because I like to watch my shows later form an audience perspective and critique myself), and costs the videographer practically nothing. Now if they refuse (and aren't paying me anything) I can make there life significantly harder...