Victorian Costume Question

[James]

OK - This isn't homework, and to be honest isn't for a theatrical performance however I thought this might be as good a place to ask as anywhere else as I'm not exactly a costume person.

 

 

 

I'm trying to do a little research into what would be appropriate attire for an upper middle class party (male and female) travelling by train between apx 1897 and 1901 (not aristocracy but affluent to charter their own carriage)

 

I've not found too much - particularly in colour

 

I started looking for contempory paintings William Powell Frith's "The Railway Station" is dated 1862 so far too early, Monet's "The Gare St-Lazare" is 1977 - but too indistinct, and let's not start on Turner... (That's a train?)

 

I've looked at the public collections at some museums (V&A, Bath museum of Fashion, Kyoto Institute) and found some items contemporary to the period I'm looking at, (mostly female - did men cease to exist after 1800?) however there isn't a lot of context for someone not familiar with the period.

 

I've also found some fashion plate reference (again mainly female and almost invariably black and white) which has the same issues - when every reference I can find implies there could be a different outfit for a different time of day (day dress, promenade dress etc) I'm not familiar enough with the period to know what would be appropriate for a railway journey out for an evening's entertainment.

 

Thanks for reading this far - again I apologise I'm not a costume person! but if anyone has any ideas for future research I would be gratefully appreciative.

 

 

Cheers

 

 

James

[Jivemaster]

York Railway museum will likely have a website, which may have images to suit. They may also have researchers or DIY research facilities, which will likely cost money.

 

A concurrent post has been automatically merged from this point on.

 

http://www.nrm.org.uk/ResearchAndArchive.aspx

[w/robe]

James

 

There is no definitive answer to your post just degrees of accuracy, so the big question is why you want to know.

 

If it was for a play then chances are that, if you are the person taking the decisions, you are not going to have the costumes made, so you have to do what you can with what you may have and what you can afford to hire.

 

Next question, what 'evening entertainment' are they heading for, or is the train ride itself the focus of the evening? The Victorians did have traveling outfits but they would be inappropriate for evening wear.

 

Are they eating either on the train or at their destination?

 

Were train carriages heated?

 

Why are they on the train (birthday, wedding anniversary, going on holiday?) and are there just the two of them or are they with friends?

 

From the information you have given and with no research on my part I would be inclined to go for evening tails for the man with top hat and cape and evening dress for the woman with a cape, possibly fur. The style and colour of the dress would depend a lot on her character and taste.

[richb]

I have to say, I think this is an instance where a good library (and a good librarian) will get you further, quicker, than a day at your computer.

 

Plus, the more they are used, the more they can argue for their continued existence (which is under constant threat)!

 

My two penneth!

[Matthew Robinson]

You say that they chartered a train. Something like this? http://www.lyrtrust.org.uk/images/47/47_10.JPG

It's in much better condition now, than when the photo was taken.

 

LYR 47 Blackpool Club Car built 1912 (Newton Heath) for exclusive use of businessmen commuting between Blackpool and Manchester. Underframe removed when withdrawn by British Railways in 1951, reputedly for use of LMS Cricket Club as Pavilion at Borrowash. Purchased from Redrow Homes for £1 in 1993 prior to site redevelopment. Restoration in progress using underframe from a BR standard suburban carriage.

 

Slightly :), but it gives you a fair bit of information about the type of carriage they (may have) travelled in. This is an L&Y example, but it'll be similar for any part of the British Mainland.

 

Edited to reformat.

[Jivemaster]

Also as well as there being no definitive correct answer, no-one now actually remembers the period or what they would have worn in that situation , so a reasonable and coherent scheme would probably suit your purpose without striving for total authenticity.

 

Albert the Prince Consort died in 1861 and this started the use of lots of black as Victoria never officially ended the period of official mourning and she wore black ever after.

[paulears]

If you're looking at the turn of the century +/- a year or two, then there is plenty of already researched costume material - Sherlock Holmes. Plenty of different versions, and all having examples of all the social classes, and railway travel included!

[kerry davies]

James, if you want a "one-hit wonder" on Google, try Adelina Patti and Craig-y-Nos Castle.

 

An operatic singer she bought a castle over on the other side of the Beacons National Park from here and built her own mini-opera house there. She also built a railway station and had her own ex-royal carriages to bring guests up from Neath to her soirees. The period is spot on, the entertainment of the sort your targets would attend and the "class" of people exactly right. Remember that even multi-millionaire industrialists would think twice before wearing high fashion in case they were dismissed as jumped-up "trade".

Try this site http://www.victorianlondon.org/ which has adverts from the period and note the enormous topcoats which could cover up all kinds of clothing inaccuracy, anyway.

 

Go on, James, tell us what it is for, please?

[James]

Thanks all for some interesting comments...

 

York Railway museum will likely have a website, which may have images to suit. They may also have researchers or DIY research facilities, which will likely cost money.

http://www.nrm.org.uk/ResearchAndArchive.aspx

 

Thanks Roger

 

For some reason I completely forgot about the NRM social collections - for some reason I only think of their technological and industrial collections.

This might be the excuse to get back to York sooner rather than later.....

Thanks again - big help..

 

James

 

There is no definitive answer to your post just degrees of accuracy, so the big question is why you want to know.

If it was for a play then chances are that, if you are the person taking the decisions, you are not going to have the costumes made, so you have to do what you can with what you may have and what you can afford to hire.

Next question, what 'evening entertainment' are they heading for, or is the train ride itself the focus of the evening? The Victorians did have traveling outfits but they would be inappropriate for evening wear.

Are they eating either on the train or at their destination?

Were train carriages heated?

Why are they on the train (birthday, wedding anniversary, going on holiday?) and are there just the two of them or are they with friends?

From the information you have given and with no research on my part I would be inclined to go for evening tails for the man with top hat and cape and evening dress for the woman with a cape, possibly fur. The style and colour of the dress would depend a lot on her character and taste.

 

Mark

 

Thanks for answering - good questions..

This isn't for a play - just a bit of curiosity on my part - my brain starting thinking down a specific line of thought and it hasn't managed to let go yet!

The party is going to a theatrical performance.

They are eating on the train

The carriage is fitted with steam heating

It is a party of ~20

 

I have to say, I think this is an instance where a good library (and a good librarian) will get you further, quicker, than a day at your computer.

Plus, the more they are used, the more they can argue for their continued existence (which is under constant threat)!

 

Rich - Not being funny but It was after spending a number of days looking at books and at museums I came online to ask for suggestions for other avenues for research - I don't think spending a day at a computer is the way forewad.

Unfortunatly our local library is running a policy of getting rid of books so they can have space for more computers or a cafe or drumming workshops!?!

 

You say that they chartered a train. Something like this? http://www.lyrtrust.org.uk/images/47/47_10.JPG

It's in much better condition now, than when the photo was taken.

 

Similar Matthew - however older

The specific special saloon I'm talking about is recorded on the VCT Survey and I'm sure you could find it with the information I've given if you wanted to.

 

Also as well as there being no definitive correct answer, no-one now actually remembers the period or what they would have worn in that situation , so a reasonable and coherent scheme would probably suit your purpose without striving for total authenticity.

 

Albert the Prince Consort died in 1861 and this started the use of lots of black as Victoria never officially ended the period of official mourning and she wore black ever after.

 

Roger

 

Unfortunatly the reason I'm doing this is a personal disire to strive for authenticity (As I've said earlier - this isn't for a show) - there are enough mistakes and anachronistic assumptons floating about - ugh - I know nobody remembers the period - and fassion is always a matter of personal taste - I'm just curious and interested to see how far back I can research this and to what level of accuracy - does that make sense?

 

If you're looking at the turn of the century +/- a year or two, then there is plenty of already researched costume material - Sherlock Holmes. Plenty of different versions, and all having examples of all the social classes, and railway travel included!

 

Paul - unfortunatly I don't know the quality of the research undertaken by the designers of the respective productions enough to trust them,

 

James, if you want a "one-hit wonder" on Google, try Adelina Patti and Craig-y-Nos Castle.

{snip}

Try this site http://www.victorianlondon.org/ which has adverts from the period and note the enormous topcoats which could cover up all kinds of clothing inaccuracy, anyway.

 

Go on, James, tell us what it is for, please?

 

Kerry

 

Thanks for the links however I want to research this slightly deeper than a "one-hit google wonder"

[andy_s]

not really my field, but doesn't the Victoria & Albert Museum have a large collection of fashion / clothing? might be worth a try.

[James]

I've looked at the public collections at some museums (V&A, Bath museum of Fashion, Kyoto Institute) and found some items contemporary to the period I'm looking at, (mostly female - did men cease to exist after 1800?) however there isn't a lot of context for someone not familiar with the period.

 

not really my field, but doesn't the Victoria & Albert Museum have a large collection of fashion / clothing? might be worth a try.

 

Sorry

[Jivemaster]

There was once (may still be a fashion museum at Brighton in the Dome complex. See if tourist info cam assist with contact details. Caveats- it's a LONG time since I went and if it's still there it may or may not cover the period.

Also there is a costume museum in Nottingham, part of the Castle complex I think, Again tourist info may help before travelling.

 

See if there is anything like a rail museum with paintings in the former Notts/Derbys coalfield area ,

www.midlandrailwaycentre.co.uk/

www.derbycity.com/derby2/indust.html

www.tramway.co.uk/

www.derby.gov.uk › Leisure and Culture

www.midlandrailwaystudycentre.org.uk/

etc

 

This was an era when the privately owned coalfields of that area (pre NCB!) made some families rich enough to do trips like this and maybe go to some of the bigger towns near there including even Buxton which has spa and opera house facilities.

 

See if Buxton has a town museum too

[andy_s]

I've looked at the public collections at some museums (V&A, Bath museum of Fashion, Kyoto Institute) and found some items contemporary to the period I'm looking at, (mostly female - did men cease to exist after 1800?) however there isn't a lot of context for someone not familiar with the period.

 

not really my field, but doesn't the Victoria & Albert Museum have a large collection of fashion / clothing? might be worth a try.

 

Sorry

reading clearly isn't my field either. Apologies.

[Jivemaster]

When Albert the Prince Consort died, formal mourning was declared and men started to wear black for morning, lounge and evening suits, so from a fashion point of view yes they did disappear.

[Robin D]

It's been reported in the past that the major museums have on display less than 10% of the potential exhibits. I've never contacted the V&A but I have the Science museum in the past and found them extremely helpful in discussing and sending me an image of something locked away in secure storage. You might like to ask the V&A if they have a costume specialist who you can talk to.