Fire Risk Assessments

[cfmonk]

I am redoing our fire risk assessments at the moment at work but Kerry's link to the risk assessments for outdoor events got me to thinking.

 

Where does the liability lie for a marquee I provide to a client?

 

Our terms and conditions at the moment have in them the line: 17.

 

HEALTH AND SAFETY AND FIRE SAFETY – Whilst the Company is happy to share its experience of putting on events

safely, ensuring the safety of people using our equipment and ensuring adequate fire protection and escape facilities are in

place remains the responsibility of The Hirer at all times.

 

This is because some clients will refuse to have fire exit panels and we only provide fire extinguishers if we are asked to (because we hire them in).

 

Where would liability lie if a fire started in our marquee because somebody brought in a giant un-flameretarded blancmange or similar and people ended up trapped down one end and died?

 

Obviously asking for non-lawyerly opinions here!

 

Chris

[Brian]

You will be jointly liable.

[cfmonk]

On what basis? I'm not questioning it, I just need a bit of law to have a look at and reference when clients try and not pay for fire exits.

 

 

What's the deal with fire extinguishers? Is it the same? Do I have to insist on them paying for them? I can't see that working well with private clients...

[Brian]

I thought you said...

Obviously asking for non-lawyerly opinions here!

 

;) :blink:

 

In the end it'll all come down to who takes action.

 

If the event is one for which a licence is required and on inspection the LA is unhappy then they will simply require the organiser to sort it out or prohibit the event. If the organiser fails to comply then they will be in trouble.

 

However, in the event of a serious incident such as you outlined then it may well turn into a prosecution under the HSWA led by either the LA or the HSE.

 

Thankfully, such events are rare and as a result the number of prosecutions is rare. Two examples...

 

The first is the Dreamscape accident. The local authority, the designer/artist and the organisers were all prosecuted and convicted.

 

The second is this fairground accident. Here the ride owner and the independent company who inspected the ride were both prosecuted and convicted.

 

Now, because accidents are rare it's difficult to find any cases that mirror your situation.

 

A few thoughts...

 

1) If your marquees are supplied to individuals for big parties/weddings etc then the hirer, as a private person, will have very little criminal liability in the event of an accident. They have possible civil liabilities. You, are someone providing a service by way of 'work' however will have responsibilities under the HSWA section 3.

 

2) Have you thought about having a chat with your local fire service? They all have inspectors/adviser who will visit and advise. It might open a can of worms though.

 

3) Isn't there a UK wide trade body for marquees? Do they have any guidance notes?

[cfmonk]

Hi Brian,

 

Thanks for the answer. Yep, I know I asked for non-lawyerly responses but I needed clarification on your previous answer.

 

The two examples don't really fit at the moment. I shall have another look through the MUTA guidelines and see what they suggest. I know the correct answer would be: "Never put up a marquee without the correct number of fire exits and always provide fire extinguishers" but where does that end? Do I need to insist somebody from the wedding party attends a fire marshal course?

 

I think we are in a bit of a grey area. In that if I had a venue then obviously the fire safety of that venue is my responsibility at the other end of it if I hire somebody forty trestle tables and they block a fire exit with them then I am clearly not liable. The problem with a marquee is that I am hiring them a temporary venue. But I am in no way operating that venue. It's as if they had bought a venue off me for a weekend and then they give it back so I would say THEY have the responsibility for operating it safely as long as the equipment I provide is fit for purpose.

 

As you say it's simpler in the case of companies hiring off us. The HSAW act means they have a responsibility to ensure members of the public etc. are safe and that would include checking the work of contractors but private clients are much more complicated.

 

The fire service, I'm sure, could give me lots of helpful hints about numbers of fire exits, maintained exit lights and emergency lighting but we already provide that if people are happy to pay for it. I'm not sure how helpful they would be on the liability issue???

 

Chris

[kerry davies]

What Brian said.

 

The Mutamarq guide is a pretty good place to start. Most, if not all, your questions are answered in there.

 

Must stress that there are definite minima for fire exits and if they won't pay for solid fire doors then Velcro teardown panels may be acceptable to the relevant fire officer, very few of whom are ogres.

 

Would also recommend buying a few sets of extinguishers, so there is at least one set on every job, and making a point of running clients through abbreviated "how to use my tent in safety" guidance. Lots of safety stuff has to be agreed between client and supplier for all sorts of equipment hire so you have a responsibility as the supplier of the kit.

 

In a private hire you are the one "at work" as Brian highlighted and HSWA "duty of care" will apply.

[Brian]

The two examples don't really fit at the moment.

I really just picked those to illustrate how non-obvious it can be who gets prosecuted. I don't think I've ever come across a prosecution that would directly cover your situation.

 

 

Do I need to insist somebody from the wedding party attends a fire marshal course?

...

I think we are in a bit of a grey area.

I think you're right.

 

Anyone hiring anything to a private individual is probably in an interesting position. I wonder what the real situation is with hire shops hiring out big power tools?

 

 

...but private clients are much more complicated.

That's one way to describe them ;)

 

 

The fire service, I'm sure, could give me lots of helpful hints about numbers of fire exits, maintained exit lights and emergency lighting but we already provide that if people are happy to pay for it. I'm not sure how helpful they would be on the liability issue???

I'm guessing you're in a very competitive market where if you were to do absolutely everything you might possibly need to you'd simply price yourself out of the market? My only thought on talking to the fire service is that whilst they won't be able to advise on any liability; were the worst to ever happen then if you've done everything they suggested then you'll have a good chance of convincing the powers that be, or a jury, that you took all reasonable steps.

[kerry davies]

Brian,

Supply of Machinery (Safety) Regulations 2008 covers equipment supplied for work purposes but a good bit of info is: http://www.torfaen.gov.uk/AdviceAndBenefit...ce/ToolHire.pdf which is a tool hire trade guide covering hire to the general public.

 

Interestingly, the General Product Safety Regulations 2005, combined with other regs, seems to cover pro tools and kit that have "migrated" to the domestic market, like Kango's etc. HSE, covering all bases as usual, have this site: http://www.hse.gov.uk/equipment/legislation.htm.

Presumably they would consider that as the hirer at least is "at work" HSWA, PUWER, LOLER, Supply of Machinery 2008 and Uncle Tom Cobbley would apply in some measure.

 

However, all that bulls41t law isn't the point really is it, Chris? OK, I can find no prosecutions specific to your examples, yet, but deaths on egress are probably the single greatest fatality factor in our industry and no-one should underestimate the risk of fire in tents used in entertainment.

 

Just be grateful we are in the UK, they have banned wedding tents outright in Kuwait after 57 died due to inadequate fire exits. The female arsonist responsible is sentenced to hang. Now that's really heavy H&S enforcement! http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleea...2432389741.html

[cfmonk]

Hi All,

 

Thanks for the replies. We hardly ever use solid doors as fire exits and use velcro tear down panels as standard for most things, I think they are safer than the solid doors to be honest. I know I can work out the number of fire exits needed, it's not a complicated formula but I have to admit and I don't think anybody else in my industry (at this level) could truthfully say otherwise that we are often short of the minimum.

 

When we are providing structures for festivals or anything like that, live music, school balls, corporate stuff we find that clients are very receptive to taking our advice. It's the private wedding clients who don't want the fire exits for aesthetic purposes that worry me!

 

I'm extremely nervous about buying my own extinguishers because I would then have to maintain them!

 

Tricky times!

 

I'll have a read of the stuff about hiring equipment out for private purposes and see if anything interesting comes from it.

 

Thanks again!

 

Chris

[Roderick]

If I may add my, Australian, opinion; I don't think there is a difference between a 'bricks and mortar' venue or a marquee when it comes to basics such as exits and fire extinguishers.

 

If a private client hired a village hall, with exits and fire extinguishers, they wouldn't be allowed to obstruct access to these. Why would a marquee be different?

The Australian Building Code has a whole section on 'temporary structures' for entertainment purposes and under the OH&S Regulation the 'controller of the premises' has the duty of care to provide a safe place of work. It doesn't matter whether this person is a individual or a company, if they book the marquee, the lighting, sound, etc. then that makes them the controller of the premises.

 

How does that work in the UK, just out of interest?

[Andrew C]

I'm extremely nervous about buying my own extinguishers because I would then have to maintain them!

It might be worth talking with a local extinguisher company. They might be able to set up some sort of lease/top-up scheme for those days when you need more than you want to buy.

[Brian]

I'm extremely nervous about buying my own extinguishers because I would then have to maintain them!

 

Hire them? A quick look shows HSS will hire out a 9l water unit for £5.25 for the day.

[Paul TC]

Hire them? A quick look shows HSS will hire out a 9l water unit for £5.25 for the day.

Or buy the same for under £30.

 

In a fixed location a weekly visual check of seals intact and pressure still in unit where applicable is usual, with an annual maintenance visit. You could adapt this regime, with a check out / check back in from client.

[boswell]

Or you can take the alternative view in your RA.

The only concern is to save lives, not save the building, therefore leave the fire fighting to the Fire brigade.

If you have enough exits so that if one is blocked by fire, you still have enough exit capacity, then do you need extinguishers at all??

We are lucky in that we have twice the number of exits required and they can cope with double our seating capacity.

 

I have passed this by our local Fire brigade and they are happy with it, we only have extinguishers for very small local fires (smouldering pyro pods) and no one is trained to use them. Therefore in event of fire, get everyone out and claim on the insurance for the structure!

[kerry davies]

Do you want fire exits? Yes No ( http://www.marquee-tent-hire.co.uk/calculator.asp )

 

You offer clients the choice of having nil fire exits on your own website, Chris. Forget everything I have posted thus far, you can't even begin an RA with fire exits as optional extras.

 

N.B. I only looked because you mentioned that clients express a wish not to have any and I wondered why on earth "aesthetic reasons" made clients suicidal.