Radio Mics or FOH?

[djtom29]

Hi Guys!

 

Another radio mic question here, I have recently been asked by a school I have worked for to get them a quote for 8 new Lav radio mics. Yes I know it’s been done here before, but this one is a tad different (well from looking around I can’t find anything answering my question!)

 

Basically I have used the Shure U1 Radios in the venue before, and to be fair the results were good at times, but not the best!

I also had some Sennhiser EW300 series G2 Lavs in there for a different show, which were even worse!!

 

So basically, I’m looking for a 8 Mic Lav system for a school where they put on at least 5 major shows (the last budget for Tech was £3.5K for a 4 night show, weeks dry hire).

 

I was either going to go for the new Sennhiser G3's but the EW100 series, but build the rack up of parts from different companies to get the best price I could, but I seen the Trantec S5.5 rack with 8 s5.5 Lavs, all antenna distribution, antennas, all rack mounted and all "other" parts needed for £6275 and I’m just wondering if anyone has had any experience with these mics? How do they compare to the Shure or Sennhiser kit? And is it worth paying that price for a complete system or should I stick to my Sennhiser plan and build the rack up of parts myself?

 

I have no problems building the rack up myself if it means they will get a better system for it.

 

Personally though I think spending £7K on radios when they don’t have a PA to run them through is a waste of money! and they should fit the room out with a decent FOH and desk insted of buying mics, as they may need more, or less, or different mics for each show! Maybe that may be an option if you guys think its a better use of the money and can justify it on here for me so I have something to try and convince them with.

 

Anyway, the topics fairly open, best radio rack for £7K (not including VAT as they are a school) Or reasons why not to buy radios and invest in FOH or desk!

 

Thanks

 

Tom

[Dj Dunc]

Personally being a student and having gone through a school with the "what kit to buy" dilemma, personally id always want to see the most used and key components already in place, and the "toys" or "extras" to be hired in, as you cant quickly put on an impromptu show with no warning with no mixing desk, but you can if you dont have radio mics, and you only have wired mics. It all depends what you have at the minute, and wether its worth upgrading the FOH and desk as it is old or badly specced, or just a badly used/ set up / matched rig.

 

Dunc

[smalljoshua]

A big thing to note here is that a 8 way radio mic system will be affected by the digital switch over. This means that either all 8 of the mics will have to be re-tuned to use the new licenced frequencies (in Ch38) or have to be split up into sets of 4 (or for the Senn G3 a set of 6 and 2) during or after 2012.

 

The cost of this may well be into the four figures range for 8 mics with ADU and aerials.

 

I'd always say to get the basic right first, if you're currently having to hire a Desk and PA every show then I'd say that would be a good option to look at. If you're finding you're hiring a different desk for every show though, you're going to have to think carefully and make sure you get one that can cater for every show.

 

With a PA and Desk, you're more than likely looking at an install if it's going to be a permanent feature of a performance space and as such I'd recommend contacting a local installation company and asking them to assist you and the staff in making a informed decision appropriate to your situation.

 

Josh

[djtom29]

Thanks for the reply Dunc

 

I don’t go to the school, I simply come in on there large shows and bring in the PA along with a crew who bring in the Lighting. From memory of the school they have a 20 channel Alot mixer in there studio and a few Shure PG or other mics, but very little. They have 4 "The Box" Active loud speakers in the drama rooms I sometimes use as stage monitoring when Im there. I usually have to hire an entire FOH, Desk, Outboard, Multi cores (although there is one installed) Mics (I often use my own collection for band and hire in others when needed) and everything else you have with a PA. I think if they invested in a PA and had it set up to the room, it would help with the "plug and play" style operation you need with schools, and I’m thankful I had for small gigs when I was at one!

I can see though that my point about upgrading to have a system there before buying things you need specific to a show is shared by one person though!

 

Tom

 

 

 

*edit* Thanks Josh, I was thinking about the digital switchover, and had a quote from a company for a Ch32 system, but on the quote all they done is took the equipment I was looking at buying, and put it on one of their quotation forms, they even used the same names for equipment from other suppliers own ranges! So yes this is defiantly something I think that should make the decision a lot easier.

 

Thanks

[Rob_Beech]

As someone who does alot of wireless hire to various companies, schools, universities and theatres nationwide I'd like to think the following advice be thought out and valid. However, don't take it as an advertisement, you're welcome to purchase and hire from whoever you please.

 

In 2012 G1 and G2 stuff will be very difficult to use. You can use upto 4 channels in Channel 70 (although traffic in this area will be much busier potentially making them unreliable). Any more than 4 channels and you'll need equipment capable of operating in the Ch38 band. G3 stuff is apparently retunable when the new boards are available but this will cost you, despite what other people may say. It's a massive investment that could be spent elsewhere.

 

Before delivery, with Me4 or ME2 lav mics a set of 8 G1 or G2 100 Series with antenna distribution from me is £350 exc vat per week. Prices from your local company may differ. If you do 5 shows a year, it doesn't take your schools head of Maths to work out that it shall take a while to make that pay for itself. And of course, one show you might only need 4, or 6. Another show you might think, "actually 10 would be nice".

 

The other thing is the mics themselves, a little extra per unit per week will get you discreet headsets, or of course, you can have a mixture, something you can't do with your own stock unless you buy 8 of each type of mic. And what if you wanted a handheld and 7 lavs, not a problem, same price etc.

 

You may find that one show you need 8 packs and receivers but it would be handy to have 14 mics so you are not swapping. Hire extra mics, not a problem.

 

 

If you invest several thousand pounds into equipment that you KNOW you'll have to spend hundreds (maybe 4 figures) on in 18 months time then personally I think you'd be silly. Something that you need every show would be useful. £7000 could be spent on an LS9 32 if you were looking at desks.

 

As for the quality of the Sennheiser stuff, I have about a dozen units of G1 which works great still. I have about 60 units of G2 (mostly 100 series though a few 300 series also) and it works every bit as good as anything else in or a little above its price range. In the handheld department I have some 5000 series too which are nicer than nice. I would use the best value for money system on the market as over half my annual income is from wireless hire. It's currently the G2 systems. If you've had major issues with them I'd try and look into where those issues were and if it could be something else causing them.

 

 

If you would like anymore advice you're welcome to contact me directly.

 

Rob

[Bobbsy]

Well, if you had a clean slate on this, I'd definitely invest in a decent FOH system and keep renting the radio mics for the five shows per year. The FOH system won't just be used for those five shows--it'll be a noticeable improvement for every school assembly, fund raising night, battle of the bands, karaoke contest, disco or whatever the school does. When my kids were in high school, the FOH system was used for something almost daily, sometimes simple, sometimes more complex. Radio mics are easy to rent and, almost as important, also require a lot of TLC. The initial capital spend will only be the start--capsules will be sweated out or just disappear, connectors will break, TX packs will fall off the belt and into the toilet, etc. etc.

 

However, if politics do mitigate towards buying the mics, then I'd put in another vote for the Sennheiser G3 stuff definitely in the Channel 38 range (providing of course that you're in an area where that is already usable--check first with JFMG). For the budget you mention, you should be able to get all the channels you need plus spend money on racking, external antennas with high quality, low loss cable, a good antenna distribution system (with extra outputs for when you rent more kit) and probably a pile of spare CPC hairline and headset capsules. A selection of pouches/belts to fit the mics on the actors is also worthwhile. The cynic in me says you should also invest in a locking cabinet to keep all the easily stolen stuff!

 

...but all this hinges on Channel 38 being available in your area now. If not, then investing in Channel 69 kit just now is silly--and makes the perfect argument for buying FOH stuff instead!

 

Bob

[paulears]

Rob and Bob are 100% right here. I've been on both ends of this and buying radio kit is so problematic for schools and colleges that they simply are incredibly bad items to purchase.

 

Rob's point on what kind of mic head do you want is very important - depends on the production so much.

 

I see many of these purchases when I visit schools and colleges. Some of the bigger colleges who have almost continuous productions do gain by buying, because the usage makes it economic, and they build up stocks of consumable items - which in this case means microphones. Students of all ages destroy huge amounts of them, mostly by accidental carelessness.

 

Most are fitted into racks and are moved from place to place.

 

Other colleges, with less activity try to do the same, but their racks have empty spaces, where people have borrowed bits, and a local theatre group, near to me hired one from the local college and it performed dreadfully. A quick look sorted this out. 12 receivers, 2 four way ant distros, so not enough output sockets to feed the receivers, so some had two inputs (although from the same antenna!) while others just had one. No technician support there, so nobody even realised how it was supposed to be wired.

 

Schools are by far the worst - nobody who knows how to set them up, look after them and repair them - all critical things. One I was at last week, had a pile of them - as in a real PILE, a load of Sennheiser Freeports, slung in a cupboard. I counted and there were 8. All on ch 70. Teacher said they were 'rubbish' and had never worked properly - hmm?

 

The real issue is that educational budgets promote buying new, in one go, at certain points of the year. Hire fees, being unknown before the year starts often are simply not there by the time the need arises.

 

Personally, I really can't see that schools need them, because they hardly ever have the skills needed to use them effectively. Most teachers cannot see why they are not plug and play. One hideous production I went in to try to sort had a sound 'op' scared to touch the desk, and a row of faders that were set by the hire company when they set the kit up (in the absence of the cast) and the teacher forbid anyone to twiddle as they'd been preset professionally - which of course meant that when the cast turned the packs on and off themselves to 'work them' - it resulted in instant chaos.

 

We don't promote movers in schools for almost the same reasons - radio mics and no skill is pretty much the same.

[Pattern123]

Convince them to buy the PA instead!

 

We have 8 Radio Mics here, it's a pain in the bum, quite frankly. We don't ever have anyone with the ability to properly operate them (Even if I do it myself, the kids always switch them off or break the capsules or tape them to the back of their head etc, etc.)

 

In my opinion Schools shouldn't use them, other than handhelds for specific applications. No school ever used to use them, you can use shotguns for sound reinforcement if absolutely neccessary.

 

Moving lights though, our Smartmacs are no problem and make my life much easier, the kids are pretty good at operating them too!

[Bobbsy]

We have 8 Radio Mics here, it's a pain in the bum, quite frankly. We don't ever have anyone with the ability to properly operate them (Even if I do it myself, the kids always switch them off or break the capsules or tape them to the back of their head etc, etc.)

 

I blame the staff theatre technicians and drama teachers myself...they always want to play with lighting at the expense of sound!

 

Seriously, radio mics ARE a pain in the butt to use and maintain but I don't think the golden age where kids could project to the back of the theatre without help ever really existed. People were just used to not hearing the performers.

 

Alas, a number of things have changed:

 

First, audience expectations are now higher. Pro theatres use radio mics extensively and audiences (mainly parents) want the same experience in a school.

 

Second, (and a fatal problem when combined with my point one), audiences have forgotten how to listen properly. High quality sound at concerts, in cinemas and in professional theatre has given us a generation of audiences who want things easy to hear.

 

Third, modern shows are often written with a far more "rock" score than the old classics. They're designed to use amplified electronic instruments and the cast on stage need to be miked to keep up with this.

 

Combine these points with the fact that very few schools have pits so the orchestra is on the floor between the stage and the audience, control of dynamics (i.e. playing softly) is often beyond the skills of student musicians and add the shy nerves of the cast not projecting--and radio mics become a necessary evil in most schools. I've actually heard them used well by some student operators (cough cough when I was doing sound workshops). What's needed is training, not just ignoring them and hoping they'll go away.

 

...I'd still upgrade the FOH system first though!

 

Bob

[benweblight]

Another positive for getting a PA would be that as your using the same desk etc. on every show that students can be trained to use it rather than needing to learn a different system every time.

[Rob_Beech]

Second, (and a fatal problem when combined with my point one), audiences have forgotten how to listen properly. High quality sound at concerts, in cinemas and in professional theatre has given us a generation of audiences who want things easy to hear.

 

I'd perhaps question this. I personally believe that we've had a bit of a peak and now peoples expectations whilst high, are not as high as they SHOULD be when we look at the improvement of technology. Personal music players through poor quality earphones, you tube and streaming low quality music, laptop speakers, mobile phone speakers, have all made alot of the technologically advanced generation (them youngens) less aware of true reproduction. Though that's all off topic.

[ojc123]

I blame the staff theatre technicians and drama teachers myself...they always want to play with lighting at the expense of sound!

Always? Here's one who wants to play with sound rather than lighting.

 

I'd upgrade the FOH system first too.

[Paul J Need]

A nod from me to spend any budget on getting the basics in place - PA, playback and control - hire in the stuff which is more easily broken/lost (radios and wired equipment) And perhaps buy a couple of radios with what's left over

[Pattern123]

I blame the staff theatre technicians and drama teachers myself...they always want to play with lighting at the expense of sound!

 

Oi! I am the theatre technician! I spend as much time on sound as on lighting - about 10 minutes on each per average show. Seriously though, doesn't matter how much time you give to it, you cannot mitigate for the performers ability to mess with them. Last big show we did had 4 additional hired in pro mics (Sennheiser EW300's), and they managed on two seperate occasions to re-tune a mic to the same frequency as another, thereby taking out both of them. We only had one half of one show where all were working fine, and that was with myself, an operator, and two stage crew devoted specifically to putting them on and swapping them as required. To be honest, even when they did all work, it made hearing the show more difficult, because with 100+ cast there were still lots of lines delivered without radio mics, and the contrast made it impossible to hear them.

 

Our Junior school never use them at all, and no complaints, no problems with audience hearing etc.

[Bobbsy]

My experience is different...

 

I have to state upfront that I've never worked for a school. However, I did spend time helping out on sound when my kids were in high school (they're both in their 20s now--in fact my son is employed as the head technician at a local school) and, more to the point, spent 15 years as a trustee for a local youth drama group doing 4-5 shows per year. In that time we never once had a problem with the cast or backstage crew messing with the settings on our mic packs. Maybe I'm too intimidating in real life! However, we always set down rules at the beginning of a production, number one being "we've put tape over the switches on the mic--NOBODY but designated sound crew is to interfere with the tape". Rule two was "if you have problems or concerns, find somebody from the sound crew".

 

In my experience, both at my kids' school and at the youth group, the youngsters were very good about such things--certainly better than some big name professionals who will go unmentioned here!

 

One thing I should say is that, when I design a show, reinforcement on straight lines is somewhere between subtle and non-existant--the mics are mainly there for musical numbers where the cast is competing with an orchestra. Done that way, a mix of RF and float mics was usually enough to make chorus number and any solo lines heard okay.

 

...but maybe it's easier for an outsider coming in.

 

Bob