Live fire indoors

[neibey71]

Can someone offer me some advice for having a live fire on stage, indoors? I am directing A Lie of the Mind and the play calls for a character to light a fire in a trash can. It will need to burn for 12-15 minutes. I have researched Pyro gel and Pyro fluid. I really want to use live fire for this. It is a central motif. Any help would be appreciated. :blink:

[Jivemaster]

The fire is the easy bit! Getting permission could be (much) more dificult.

 

Start by asking your venue licence holder if they would consider the idea, then talk to your fire brigade liason officer, then talk to the licensing officer at your licensing authority.

 

the heat and smoke should trip every alarm in the building and singe every drape

 

 

Thinking arround the idea, there are some cool fire flares occasionally used on wedding cakes, they have a 1 minute burn time so you would need about 30 to overlap and keep the effect up for ten minutes, Oh! there were some on the classified section a while ago. sadly they look little like a trashcan fire.

 

http://www.blue-room.org.uk/index.php?showtopic=3667

may still be valid

 

Really I think that lit blown silk is the only reasonable answer.

[Guest lightnix]

Hello neiby71, welcome to the Blue Room -_-

 

Jivemaster is right, it's the health and safety issues which could be the toughest obstacles and some kind of silk flame effect may be the safest option, not to mention the most controllable. It can also be made to look very realistic.

 

Have a look at this thread, which is going on in the lighting forum at the moment; it may help to give you a few ideas for fire effects without real fire. There's also this thread from earlier this year on the use of real fire on stage. Blue Room member Lincoln runs a pyro effects company here in the UK and may be able to offer some advice if you e-mail him.

 

Some companies have created DMX-controlled gas flames. As you are in the States, you could try contacting LeMaitre USA for more locally based advice and solutions, or look around for other pyrotechnics companies in your area.

[Tom]

Have a look at these two topics:

Real Flame Effects

Fire On Stage

 

Personally, I'd have a plan have how I was going to achieve rthe effect I wanted and what saftey measures I was going to take before I approached the licensing authority.

 

Edit Lightnix beat me to it but missed the "Real Flame" topic.

[paulears]

I can't think of any reason at all to have real flames. Apart from the danger, what about the smoke and fumes? 10 minutes of real flames will stretch the air-con and as has been said - how do you stop the fire alarm detecting it?

[Tomo]

Some companies have created DMX-controlled gas flames.

Which are a bloody stupid idea in my opinion - especially as USITT specifically state that DMX isn't to be used for that kind of effect.

 

If you're dead set on having actual flames, the only suitable methods I can think of is either a gas burner or a paraffin burner that uses a wick.

 

Gas produces less smoke and is more controllable but requires more specialist equipment.

 

Paraffin is used by 'fire eaters', and burns relatively cold (but still hot enough to cause burns). It's less controllable (on/off is all you get), but the equipment is simpler.

 

You'll need to sort out suitable methods for controlling the fuel and the burn, and have the capability to instantly douse the flame if required, plus suitable procedures for the unlikely event of the effect being knocked.

The heat and smoke output from the effect will need to go somewhere, so you'll need some form of chimney (or similar) to properly ventilate the stage.

 

You'll need a stagehand close to the effect to control the burn, and ensure that it's not set off unexpectedly etc etc.

 

The effect is a pyrotechnic, and should be treated with the same (if not greater) respect that you give to any pyro.

 

At the end of the day, the local authority will have final say over whether you can use the effect

 

(I'm not a pyrotechnic engineer, this is guesswork from a friend who does fire-eating.)

[mikienorth]

at our venue we seem to use a lot of fire.

we have a version of those flame projectors with a DMX or stand alone option to them (Artisic Licence's DMX relay is a handy tool)

we operate with two dead man switches plus a separate E-stop when on DMX

This was a custom built system by an outside contractor and wasn't cheap from what I was told, It Wasn't EMF by the way.

No good for what you want here mind (20 foot fireballs dont fit in trashcans)

We have hand held torches which are wicks dipped in heptane (Zippo fluid) and are spring loaded so when dropped or let go of in any way, the buring section dissappears into the handle (as a deadman/extinguisher). These are old so don't have a manufacturer.

We also have burners.

Inside the burner is a 6.5kg propane cylinder, fed via a regulator and basic lever valve to what looks like it comes from the centre of a gas cooker, but with no air mixing (to get a yellow flame)

This would fit with modification into a trash can. No ideas on risk assesments etc, as they are done for me. These were custom built in house by an extensive engineering dept and qualified gas fitters (the joy of theme parks, having all your welders/fabricators/building sparks/plumbers/roller coaster spares in the same yard as your venue)

[Jivemaster]

lots of interesting ideas.

 

look at putting fire coloured flickering lighting into the trashcan and triggering a smoke machine inside to give the effect of fire in the can lighting up its own smoke. Add a small silk flicker to reinforce the illusion.

 

I guess few of us here know the detail of licensing in accademic institutions in America. But any failure to provide a safe show could cost you. We seem to be coming close to attempted arson, check your insurers will keep you covered.

 

I do remember feeling the searing heat from a pyro "flame projector" and that lasts about 3 seconds!

 

Also remember that any hardware will be dangerously hot after 10 minutes of live flame. Your stage crew will not want to set or strike a heavy prop at ca 400C

[Guest lightnix]

...USITT specifically state that DMX isn't to be used for that kind of effect.

I didn't know that. Any idea of the reasoning behind it?

 

On the general artistic front: I was taught that theatre is "the creation of suspended disbelief" and that as such, the use of "real" things on stage can often do more to destroy the illusion than to build it. If you use real fire, some people in the audience will think, "Oooh, real fire". As it continues to burn, there may be some who become concerned at the use of real flame for such a long period, feel that it constitutes a danger and complain about it afterwards. Health hazards aside, the risk here is that the illusion could be lost and that the audience will start to direct their attention more towards the fire, than towards the action.

 

A combination of lighting, silk flames and a little smoke, combined with some experimentation and careful plotting could well produce a more convincing illusion in the end. The silk flames needn't come leaping out of the can, just lick over the top of it. Trash can fires like this will produce little smoke once the fire has taken hold, but more when it is first lit and when it is dying down. You will have a precisely controllable, more predictable, safer and reliable effect, the intensity of which can be varied in sympathy with the speech and action.

 

Another advantage with going the "electro-mechanical route", is that once you have built this effect, you will be able to keep it in the prop store for future use and whip it out at a moment's notice.

 

For research purposes, you could try creating a real trash can fire or two outdoors, after dark and videoing them, using mannequin dolls for actors. That will give you a "live" reference for the effect you are trying to recreate.

 

Ironically, you will know that you've successfully produced a convincing effect, if people complain after the show, about the dangers of using of real fire onstage -_- When silk flames first appeared on the market, there was more than one UK fire inspector whose immediate reaction was, "WHAT THE %$*&<@?!?!?!?! Are you MAD??? You can't have THAT in here!!! IT'S DANGEROUS!!!!!!!!"

 

Oh how we laughed :) :huh:

[Tomo]

...USITT specifically state that DMX isn't to be used for that kind of effect.

I didn't know that. Any idea of the reasoning behind it?

DMX has no verification of the signal reception from the transmitter (desk) end, and no confirmation that the signal received by the dimmer is either meant for that particular channel or actually correct.

 

So USITT say that DMX is not to be used for any effect where incorrect, lack of, or interruption to reception could cause damage or injury.

 

In my book, flame effects fall into that category!

 

It sounds like mikienorth's venue know that and have produced a system which covers the safety relatively well - an EM-Stop alone would be insufficient in my book, but dual deadmans handles should cover for most eventualities.

[ksm]

Hello all, seem not to have posted for about 6 months!! Oh well, nice to be back....

 

 

I think there used to be something called Lycopodium powder that burnt realistically but created very little or no heat....Never used it and it probably isn't available anymore but please someone tell me I am not dreaming.... -_-

 

If you absolutely have to have real flames the only way I think you'll get away with it is with gas which will be costly. I echo all other advice and go silk.....with distance and other lighting it will probably look more realistic in any case!!

 

K

[mikienorth]

after that great load I wrote yeaterday on the ways we use real fire, I watched another show at our venues at the weekend...

this uses again real fire from a company called DKD, at least that is what is all over the control gear for it, it is a very impressive system.

it also uses the torches I described earlier.

Let me give a bit of background.

Earlier this year I worked this show for a week as cover for another ASM, so know the back pretty well, but had never seen it from the front.

upon seeing from the front I saw the DKD effect, knowing what it was I knew where to see the fire, however, when looking at the rest of the set during this part of the show there were loads of little flames that I thought were real, but wondered 'when did they add those, they werent there in June and the rumour mill would have told me if new fire had been added'

I looked at these for a good ten minutes before realising, and feeling rather daft when I did 'Oh they are silks!!!'

In short I agree with all here that silk flames are very, very effective and thats coming from a guy who posted all that up there about real fire effects (who should know the difference really...) ;)

[tomchennells]

hi

 

ive seen a product - which is domestic

 

there gell pots for putting in closed fireplaces in houses, like a baked bean can full of gell, £4 each or therabouts, look good on a dark stage im sure, they give off practically no smoke whatsoever and burn for a couple of hours, meaning you dont need new ones every show ;)

 

theres lots of diffrent kinds of theese - im sure you would need a few to get a big enough effect tho,

 

I cant see many venues having issues with this kind of thing if they get knocked over they just go out !

 

- tom

[ksm]

hi

 

ive seen a product - which is domestic

 

there gell pots for putting in closed fireplaces in houses, like a baked bean can full of gell, £4 each or therabouts, look good on a dark stage im sure, they give off practically no smoke whatsoever and burn for a couple of hours, meaning you dont need new ones every show  ;)

 

theres lots of diffrent kinds of theese - im sure you would need a few to get a big enough effect tho,

 

I cant see many venues having issues with this kind of thing if they get knocked over they just go out !

 

- tom

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

 

The problem with these is that they are alcohol based and whilst they are alight its not too bad when they are extinguished they leave behind some rather obnoxious fumes. Might not be too bad in a well ventilated theatre though....

 

Also, as they get very hot the gel itself starts to boil which can make a bit of a racket!! And the flames can get alarmingly high!! (rubs eyebrows after nasty incident)

 

KSM

[Jivemaster]

Gelled Kerosene, called napalm in another industry, is used in catering banqueting bain-marie's to keep the water hot. Always smells of jet fuel always reminds me of time as ATC at a small airfield. trouble is, it burns hot and cleanly with a pale blue flame.- not very visible.

 

I still say the fire is easy we have the technology, the permission will be more difficult.